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Old 04-06-2016, 12:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post

Also, the Bible does not say the lake of fire is eternal.
Well.....“Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels." Matthew 25:41

There is no mention of the Lake of Fire being done away with in the Bible. However, that makes since seeing how the 'Lake of Fire' is symbolic of 'nothingness'.

1 Corinthians 15:26 "And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing."
Compared to
Revelations 20:14 "And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire."

There is no way to remove 'nothing'.
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Old 04-06-2016, 01:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryan85 View Post
If all were going to heaven, there would be no such thing as hell.
I like this straightforward approach but it is too simplistic at the same time. God has restorative processes, much along the lines of 'one reaps what one sows'. Laws are in place that means it all works out, even as much as we are totally ignorant of them in action. Whilst there are places to go, no one has to especially 'go' anywhere to reap what one sows - it is the inner purging that God's discipline effects, from the causes and effects of the spiritual laws in action, working behind the scenes as it were.
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Old 04-06-2016, 01:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bryan85
If all were going to heaven, there would be no such thing as hell.
bryan85, it is my understanding that since there will be a Gehenna (improperly translated "Hell" in some bibles) during the millennial reign of Christ and since there will be a second death during the closing of the 4th age/eon (millennium) and lasts through the 5th age/eon (new earth), we should not suppose this negates God's will to save all mankind since Christ has, as a matter of fact, ransomed all mankind. We must not confuse the getting with the goal. By that I mean we should not say that the processes prior to God saving all are the goals God has for mankind such as Gehenna or the second death. Those are not God's ultimate goal for all of humanity.

In a way, an equivalent statement to what you said above could be made such as: Since Christians are going to heaven, there would be no such thing as Christians being judged now so as not to be condemned with the world.
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Old 04-06-2016, 01:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
Well.....“Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels." Matthew 25:41
First of all, Matthew 25:31-46 is not concerning the lake of fire. The lake of fire comes 1000 years after Christ judges those nations as to how they treated His brethren. Furthermore, the word "everlasting" should be thought of as "lasting for an ever." The Greek word behind "ever-lasting" is "aionios" and is the adjectival form of the noun it was derived from which is aion. It just tells us of that which pertains to the aion/eon/age. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote:
There is no mention of the Lake of Fire being done away with in the Bible. However, that makes since seeing how the 'Lake of Fire' is symbolic of 'nothingness'.

1 Corinthians 15:26 "And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing."
Compared to
Revelations 20:14 "And death and the Grave were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire."

There is no way to remove 'nothing'.
1 Corinthians 15:26 does not use the Greek word for "nothing." That death will be abolished. Once the second death is abolished, all interred in that death will come forth with real life, be subjected to Christ and then God will be All in all (1 Cor.15:22-28).

But the second death will not be abolished until Christ quits reigning and all sovereignty, authority and power is nullified. In Revelation Christ is still reigning, and there are still sovereignties, authorities and powers in control. So Paul sees beyond John's Revelation.
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Old 04-06-2016, 01:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
First of all, Matthew 25:31-46 is not concerning the lake of fire. The lake of fire comes 1000 years after Christ judges those nations as to how they treated His brethren. Furthermore, the word "everlasting" should be thought of as "lasting for an ever." The Greek word behind "ever-lasting" is "aionios" and is the adjectival form of the noun it was derived from which is aion. It just tells us of that which pertains to the aion/eon/age. Nothing more, nothing less.

1 Corinthians 15:26 does not use the Greek word for "nothing." That death will be abolished. Once the second death is abolished, all interred in that death will come forth with real life, be subjected to Christ and then God will be All in all (1 Cor.15:22-28).

But the second death will not be abolished until Christ quits reigning and all sovereignty, authority and power is nullified. In Revelation Christ is still reigning, and there are still sovereignties, authorities and powers in control. So Paul sees beyond John's Revelation.
Could you show all the scriptures where you came by this information about the second death being abolished please. Because here's the problem. If the 2nd death is abolished then it would have to be abolished by something else. Then the 3rd death (?) would have to be abolished by something etc etc.

'everlasting' or 'eternal' is how almost every translation puts it.
Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Are you saying all of those translators with all the work and research they got it wrong? I feel I must go with the experts on this one. Here is the same word translated in other scriptures. Greek Concordance: ??????? (ai?nion) -- 45 Occurrences

Abolished works too. To end something. When a game ends where does it go? There are other translations that use the word 'destroy'. If we destroy a piece of paper by fire is it still a piece of paper? Can it be turned back into a piece of paper after it is destroyed?
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Old 04-06-2016, 02:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
Could you show all the scriptures where you came by this information about the second death being abolished please. Because here's the problem. If the 2nd death is abolished then it would have to be abolished by something else. Then the 3rd death (?) would have to be abolished by something etc etc.
It does not necessarily logically follow that for there to be a 2nd death that there must be a 3rd and 4th anymore than if there is the 7th day of the week there must also be an 8th day of the week or if there are 12 months in a year there must be 13.

What abolished death is the life of Christ.

Quote:
'everlasting' or 'eternal' is how almost every translation puts it.
Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Are you saying all of those translators with all the work and research they got it wrong? I feel I must go with the experts on this one. Here is the same word translated in other scriptures. Greek Concordance: ??????? (ai?nion) -- 45 Occurrences
Yes, of course they got it wrong. You ever hear of the fallacy "argumentum ad populum"?

Matthew 25:46 is about NATIONS and how those NATIONS mistreated Christ's brethren during their 3 1/2 year tribulation which is yet future. Matthew 25:31-46 is not about individuals nor about faith in Christ. It is about how His brethren were treated. The goat nations go into aionion kolasin (eonian chastening) yet the just [nations] to aionion zoe (eonian life). Both the life and the chastening are of the same duration and is only pertaining to the millennial eon.

I just proved in a recent earlier post that "eternal" is an impossible translation for aionios since it is just an adjective derived from its noun aion. Since no adjective in the Bible is greater than the noun from which it is derived from and since no aion can be eternal since the bible says they all end, it is therefore impossible for its adjectival form to have the idea of eternality.

Quote:
Abolished works too. To end something. When a game ends where does it go?
The question should be "when a game ends where do the people go?"


Quote:
There are other translations that use the word 'destroy'. If we destroy a piece of paper by fire is it still a piece of paper? Can it be turned back into a piece of paper after it is destroyed?
If death is destroyed or done away with, then those held by death will be released from death.
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Old 04-06-2016, 02:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
It does not necessarily logically follow that for there to be a 2nd death that there must be a 3rd and 4th anymore than if there is the 7th day of the week there must also be an 8th day of the week or if there are 12 months in a year there must be 13.

What abolished death is the life of Christ.

Yes, of course they got it wrong. You ever hear of the fallacy "argumentum ad populum"?

Matthew 25:46 is about NATIONS and how those NATIONS mistreated Christ's brethren during their 3 1/2 year tribulation which is yet future. Matthew 25:31-46 is not about individuals nor about faith in Christ. It is about how His brethren were treated. The goat nations go into aionion kolasin (eonian chastening) yet the just [nations] to aionion zoe (eonian life). Both the life and the chastening are of the same duration and is only pertaining to the millennial eon.

I just proved in a recent earlier post that "eternal" is an impossible translation for aionios since it is just an adjective derived from its noun aion. Since no adjective in the Bible is greater than the noun from which it is derived from and since no aion can be eternal since the bible says they all end, it is therefore impossible for its adjectival form to have the idea of eternality.
Ah I see. So then I guess you will need to translate your own Bible. You will have quite an uphill battle though with language experts. Plus you have only proved you have an opinion. I am sorry to say that I'm very skeptical of people that claim they are the only person in the world that got it right based on opinion. Did they translate the word wrong in every occurrence in the Bible? Does it mean there really is no eternal life? 1 Timothy 1:16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
Same word used here as in Matthew.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post

The question should be "when a game ends where do the people go?"


If death is destroyed or done away with, then those held by death will be released from death.
But I still need scriptures that say that the 2nd death is done away with. I agree that the grave will be done away with. That most certainly in the Bible.
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Old 04-06-2016, 03:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
But I still need scriptures that say that the 2nd death is done away with. I agree that the grave will be done away with. That most certainly in the Bible.
The most ironic thing to ever happen will be when men wish they could die,
rather than be judged. Now we complain about death, then they will complain
of no death.
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Old 04-06-2016, 04:40 PM
 
4,851 posts, read 1,462,266 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, I'm not wrong. Long before the time of Augustine (c. A.D. 354- 430) eternal condemnation was the belief of the church as can be seen from the quotations of the early church fathers which I posted in the first post of my thread

The title of your thread was/is completely in error. Since I quoted many church fathers who supported universal reconciliation, and since , of the 6 early schools of Christianity 4 taught UR, obviously the early church did teach it. It is accurate to say that some early church fathers believed in eternal torment, but this was common on the Roman side, which made numerous other errors as well.

Some Latins fathers in the early church, for example, taught that if you sinned after being baptized and initially forgiven that there was no more forgiveness any more. You were destined for Hell. I believe Tertullian was one. The Greeks in the east corrected this error.

Some Latin fathers, including the champion of eternal torment Augustine, taught that unbaptized infants go to Hell. Not limbo, as Catholics today have revised it to, but to Hell. Real cheery folks, these Romans . The Greeks never bought this error.

The Latins created the concept of Purgatory. The Greeks do not accept this.

The Romans have consistently throughout church history created strange doctrines . The Greeks rarely if ever have, and have consistently tempered and corrected the erroneous ideas of the Latins until the break in 1054. The concept of eternal torment is certainly one case.


The eternal torment side is forever having to say " well but...." in response to certain scriptures. Not so with the UR side. All they have to do is point out the translation errors on the ET side, and let the Bible say what it says.





Quote:

Oh, there may have been some who believed in universalism even in the first century since there have always been differing beliefs, but as can be seen from those statements of the early church fathers prior to the time of Augustine, eternal condemnation was certainly the belief of the early church in the second century.

It was considerably more than some. As per my quotes from 2 early fathers who believed in eternal torment, even they admit that most of the church believed in universal reconciliation. See my quotes from Jerome and Augustine. And where did the "most" and the "many" get this idea? Well, from their church. There were no Bibles in that day aside from those in the care of the churches and possibly in the possession of a very few rich people. There were no printing presses , and the only way to have a personal copy was to pay a scribe to hand copy one for you. So the most of Jerome and the many of Augustine did not get this idea from reading the Bible in the privacy of their own homes, they got it from being taught it at church. And the priests would have only taught what their bishops approved of . So we see that so many early churches were teaching UR that even 2 adherents of eternal torment admit that most of Christianity believes in UR.

Quote:
As I also said in that post, ''It should be pointed out that what matters is what the Bible teaches about the eternal lake of fire. Not what the church at any time in history says about it. But as it turns out, the early church is in agreement with the Bible.''

The Bible as properly interpreted teaches UR. The Bible improperly interpreted teaches ET. You simply continue on in the error of the Latin church that first misunderstood the Greek language of the Bible. The Romans had the original Greek translated into Latin, called the Vulgate. The translators were not as fully competent at Greek as the native Greek fathers of the east , and so made errors. The Roman fathers , studying their theology from an erroneously translated Bible , learned in error and taught in error. As do you.



Quote:
At any rate, despite an old thread of mine having been posted on this thread by someone, I'm not going to participate in the discussion beyond this point just as I have not participated prior to this. The quotations of the 2nd century church fathers are posted above for all to see. And, so, but, therefore . . .

As are the quotes from the early fathers that taught UR. And we still have the fact that the church had more schools of thought teaching UR than ET , and more followers of that teaching until an emperor decided he had the right to involve himself in church doctrine.
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Old 04-06-2016, 09:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, I'm not wrong. Long before the time of Augustine (c. A.D. 354- 430) eternal condemnation was the belief of the church as can be seen from the quotations of the early church fathers which I posted in the first post of my thread - The Early Church Fathers Did Not Believe In Universal Salvation
Ignatius of Antioch (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2, [110 A.D.]) ''Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire, and so will anyone who listens to him.

Clement of Rome (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D.150]) ''If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest, but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment.''

(Second Clement 8:4) ''So also let us, while we are in this world, repent with our whole heart of the evil things which we have done in the flesh, that we may be saved by the Lord, while we have yet time for repentance.''


(Second Clement 8:5) ''After we have gone out of the world, no further power of confessing or repenting will belong to us.'' (In other words, Clement is saying that you must make the decision to believe in Christ while you are alive on this earth.)

Justin Martyr (First Apology 12 [150 A.D]) ''No more is it possible for the evil doer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of Fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments.''

Justin Martyr (First Apology of Justin, Chap. VIII [150 A.D.]) ''And we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment, and not only as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years. And if anyone say that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only, and no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of any harm.'' (Justin is clear in stating that the punishment is eternal and not for a temporary amount of time.)

Justin Martyr (First Apology of Justin, Chap. XXVIII [150 A.D.]) ''For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold.''

Irenaeus of Lyons (Against Heresies, 4:28:2 [189 A.D]) ''The penalty increases for those who do not believe the word of God and despise his coming. It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomever the Lor shall say,'Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,'' they will be damned forever.'' (Notice the reference to Matthew 25:41)

I have used only a few of the early church leaders as evidence of the early churches teaching of eternal condemnation. There are more, such as; Polycarp (155 A.D.); Athenagoras (177 A.D.); Theophilus of Antioch (181 A.D.); Mathetes (160 A.D.)

Now here are the links:

What Early Christians believed about Hell & Eternal Punishment

Who were the early church fathers?

What Did the Early Christians Believe About Hell? (http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/inde...eve_About_Hell - broken link)
Oh, there may have been some who believed in universalism even in the first century since there have always been differing beliefs, but as can be seen from those statements of the early church fathers prior to the time of Augustine, eternal condemnation was certainly the belief of the early church in the second century.

As I also said in that post, ''It should be pointed out that what matters is what the Bible teaches about the eternal lake of fire. Not what the church at any time in history says about it. But as it turns out, the early church is in agreement with the Bible.''

At any rate, despite an old thread of mine having been posted on this thread by someone, I'm not going to participate in the discussion beyond this point just as I have not participated prior to this. The quotations of the 2nd century church fathers are posted above for all to see. And, so, but, therefore . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash View Post
The title of your thread was/is completely in error. Since I quoted many church fathers who supported universal reconciliation, and since , of the 6 early schools of Christianity 4 taught UR, obviously the early church did teach it. It is accurate to say that some early church fathers believed in eternal torment, but this was common on the Roman side, which made numerous other errors as well.

Some Latins fathers in the early church, for example, taught that if you sinned after being baptized and initially forgiven that there was no more forgiveness any more. You were destined for Hell. I believe Tertullian was one. The Greeks in the east corrected this error.

Some Latin fathers, including the champion of eternal torment Augustine, taught that unbaptized infants go to Hell. Not limbo, as Catholics today have revised it to, but to Hell. Real cheery folks, these Romans . The Greeks never bought this error.

The Latins created the concept of Purgatory. The Greeks do not accept this.

The Romans have consistently throughout church history created strange doctrines . The Greeks rarely if ever have, and have consistently tempered and corrected the erroneous ideas of the Latins until the break in 1054. The concept of eternal torment is certainly one case.


The eternal torment side is forever having to say " well but...." in response to certain scriptures. Not so with the UR side. All they have to do is point out the translation errors on the ET side, and let the Bible say what it says.








It was considerably more than some. As per my quotes from 2 early fathers who believed in eternal torment, even they admit that most of the church believed in universal reconciliation. See my quotes from Jerome and Augustine. And where did the "most" and the "many" get this idea? Well, from their church. There were no Bibles in that day aside from those in the care of the churches and possibly in the possession of a very few rich people. There were no printing presses , and the only way to have a personal copy was to pay a scribe to hand copy one for you. So the most of Jerome and the many of Augustine did not get this idea from reading the Bible in the privacy of their own homes, they got it from being taught it at church. And the priests would have only taught what their bishops approved of . So we see that so many early churches were teaching UR that even 2 adherents of eternal torment admit that most of Christianity believes in UR.




The Bible as properly interpreted teaches UR. The Bible improperly interpreted teaches ET. You simply continue on in the error of the Latin church that first misunderstood the Greek language of the Bible. The Romans had the original Greek translated into Latin, called the Vulgate. The translators were not as fully competent at Greek as the native Greek fathers of the east , and so made errors. The Roman fathers , studying their theology from an erroneously translated Bible , learned in error and taught in error. As do you.






As are the quotes from the early fathers that taught UR. And we still have the fact that the church had more schools of thought teaching UR than ET , and more followers of that teaching until an emperor decided he had the right to involve himself in church doctrine.
It seems that I will have to reply at least this one further time, for all the good it will do.

The error is not mine. And except for Clement of Alexandria all of your quotes in post #122 are of church fathers during the fourth through the sixth centuries. You made the claim in post # 122 that ''The first church father to attack universal reconciliation was Augustine.'' Augustine lived from A.D. 354-430. That's the fourth and fifth centuries. I provided a number of quotes of the early church fathers from the second century in which they expressed their views supporting eternal condemnation.

Any reasonably intelligent person understands that the second century came before the fourth and fifth centuries. This of course means that Augustine was not the first church father to 'attack' universalism. As I said, while there may have been a few people during the second century which held to universalism (Universalism in Christianity is generally traced to Origen (c. A.D 185-253)), it was not the dominant view of the church. And this fact is borne out by Irenaeus who wrote concerning the ''Rule of faith in the church'' in Against Heresies (c. A.D. 175-185).
Against Heresies Book One.

Chapter X.-Unity of the Faith of the Church Throughout the Whole World.

1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send "spiritual wickednesses," and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory.

Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies / Adversus Haereses, Book 1 (Roberts-Donaldson translation)
What Irenaeus is saying is that the church as a whole, up to his time (the late second century), held to the teachings of the apostles, and that included the distinction between those who would go into everlasting fire and those who would go into everlasting glory. And so, again, the dominant view of the early church (during the second century) was not that of Universalism. While Universalism gained some degree of popularity during the succeeding centuries, it did not last, and did not become popular again until, I think, around the 18th or 19th centuries.

And by the way, Irenaeus knew the Greek language and had been a disciple of Polycarp who himself had been a disciple of the apostle John.


And no, a properly interpreted Bible does not even remotely teach Universalism. The distinction between the eternally saved and the eternally lost could not be more clear to any objective and intellectually honest person.
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