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Old 04-07-2016, 01:03 AM
 
1,504 posts, read 618,331 times
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....with the exception that 'eternally' is not the correct translation of Olam or Aion, which therefore renders its use and meaning to be quite intellectually dishonest.

Remember, the Bible is written with reference mainly to God and His relationship with adamic mankind, which is approximately only 7000 years in time span. There have been and will be vast numbers of eons before and after that 7000 year time span. To assume the Bible addresses the purpose and function of all the eons is i feel a little nieve and ahead of ourselves.

Last edited by Age-enduring; 04-07-2016 at 02:27 AM..
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Old 04-07-2016, 07:32 AM
 
Location: Georgia
3,550 posts, read 1,231,112 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Age-enduring View Post
I like this straightforward approach but it is too simplistic at the same time. God has restorative processes, much along the lines of 'one reaps what one sows'. Laws are in place that means it all works out, even as much as we are totally ignorant of them in action. Whilst there are places to go, no one has to especially 'go' anywhere to reap what one sows - it is the inner purging that God's discipline effects, from the causes and effects of the spiritual laws in action, working behind the scenes as it were.
God is in charge, and we do reap what we sow. However, I do not believe it "all evens out" during our time on earth. Since He is a just God, He will see to it that justice is done when it's all said and done- His justice (which is tempered with mercy). Inner purging is necessary for us, but for those without a conscience- it doesn't work.
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Old 04-07-2016, 08:27 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,471,098 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
Ah I see. So then I guess you will need to translate your own Bible. You will have quite an uphill battle though with language experts. Plus you have only proved you have an opinion. I am sorry to say that I'm very skeptical of people that claim they are the only person in the world that got it right based on opinion. Did they translate the word wrong in every occurrence in the Bible? Does it mean there really is no eternal life? 1 Timothy 1:16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.
Same word used here as in Matthew.


But I still need scriptures that say that the 2nd death is done away with. I agree that the grave will be done away with. That most certainly in the Bible.
There are plenty of language experts who know neither aion nor aionion should be translated as eternal.

The fact that the so-called other "experts" translated both "aion" as:

Age 2x
Beginning of the world 2x
Course 1x
Eternal 2x
Ever 2x
for ever 27x
For ever and ever 21x
For evermore 3x
Never 7x
World 32x
World began 1x
World with end 1x
While the world standeth 1x

Shows they really didn't understand what "aion" meant.

But there are plenty of translations out there translated by language experts who did give aion and aionion their proper meanings and it wasn't "eternal."

I already explained to you how the 2nd death will be done away and then God will be All in all. If you don't get it by now, how will posting it over and over allow you to get it?
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Old 04-07-2016, 08:43 AM
 
741 posts, read 273,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
There are plenty of language experts who know aion nor aionion should be translates as eternal.

The fact that the so-called other "experts" translated both "aion" as:

Age 2x
Beginning of the world 2x
Course 1x
Eternal 2x
Ever 2x
for ever 27x
For ever and ever 21x
For evermore 3x
Never 7x
World 32x
World began 1x
World with end 1x
While the world standeth 1x

Shows they really didn't understand what "aion" meant.

But there are plenty of translations out there translated by language experts who did give aion and aionion their proper meanings and it wasn't "eternal."

I already explained to you how the 2nd death will be done away and then God will be All in all. If you don't get it by now, how will posting it over and over allow you to get it?
I asked for scriptures please. I get what you are saying but you must prove it in the Bible. Your opinion is not truth to me, only the Bible is truth. You must show in the Bible that the 2nd Death is done away with.

Also you didn't answer if the same Greek word translated at 1 Timothy 1:16 actually means eternal or not.

Truth is not belief. A person can believe that there is no gravity but what is true will be revealed when they jump off a cliff. So you must present truth not what you believe. I have faith that the Bible is truth. I also have found no truth that the translators of all the Bible's where I read that verse in Matthew got it wrong. Is them getting it wrong belief or truth? If you say truth then you have to prove it. Not just because it's what you believe. What you have shown so far falls way short of proof.

Perhaps you could show me your creds? Where did you go to school to learn this? Are you published? Why aren't the scholars buzzing with your findings?

If the fire isn't eternal then the life of the righteous can't be eternal because in Matt 25:46 the same Greek word for eternal is used for both how long the fire will last and how long the righteous will live. If what you say is the truth, that the translation doesn't really mean eternal, this is going to change more words than just that scripture found at Matthew 25:46. If you're going to jump off the proverbial cliff you should know what is at the bottom of that cliff.

Last edited by 2Timothy316; 04-07-2016 at 09:07 AM..
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Old 04-07-2016, 08:54 AM
 
4,851 posts, read 1,480,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It seems that I will have to reply at least this one further time, for all the good it will do.

The error is not mine. And except for Clement of Alexandria all of your quotes in post #122 are of church fathers during the fourth through the sixth centuries. You made the claim in post # 122 that ''The first church father to attack universal reconciliation was Augustine.'' Augustine lived from A.D. 354-430. That's the fourth and fifth centuries. I provided a number of quotes of the early church fathers from the second century in which they expressed their views supporting eternal condemnation.

Any reasonably intelligent person understands that the second century came before the fourth and fifth centuries. This of course means that Augustine was not the first church father to 'attack' universalism. As I said, while there may have been a few people during the second century which held to universalism (Universalism in Christianity is generally traced to Origen (c. A.D 185-253)), it was not the dominant view of the church. And this fact is borne out by Irenaeus who wrote concerning the ''Rule of faith in the church'' in Against Heresies (c. A.D. 175-185).


To express a differing view, as certain early fathers did, especially on the error prone Latin side that didn't properly understand the Greek scriptures , is not necessarily to attack another's view . I admitted there were adherents of ET. I even pointed out there was an early Chriatian school of theology that taught ET . My point , perhaps not clearly stated on my part , was that no official church attack on universalism as a heresy happened before Augustine . It was not until around 500 AD that the church, on the insistence of an emperor who decided he had the right to influence church theology , began to attack universalism as contrary to church doctrine . Even then the concept met stiff resistance from the church, as many held to the doctrine and it had been a part of church teachings for centuries .

And you can make the erroneous claim all you want that it was not the dominant view . What you cannot do is show why, if eternal torment WAS the dominant view , that even two defenders of eternal torment admitted that most of the church accepted universal reconciliation . Again, this is a statement by two people living in that day who knew the church knew the views, and opposed the view they admitted was more widely followed .Again, WHERE did they learn this ? From reading their nonexistent personal Bibles in their homes and misunderstanding scripture ? No, they learned it from their priests and bishops. Eternal torment was not, as admitted even by its greatest champion and adherent , the dominant view .

The Father of fathers , Gregory of Nyssa , was a universalist . That would not be possible if the church viewed him as a heretic and teacher of heresy regarding salvation .




Quote:

And no, a properly interpreted Bible does not even remotely teach Universalism. The distinction between the eternally saved and the eternally lost could not be more clear to any objective and intellectually honest person.

Your denial has no effect upon actual truth . Once again, is is the ET side that must continually address scriptures that teach UR with " well yeah, BUT...." . You must cherry pick the Bible to eliminate the teaching of universal reconciliation.

And as far as honesty, the one having trouble with intellectual honesty would be the one that continues to use a word that has been shown to him to have been misinterpreted by ill informed Latin interpreters with respect to the meaning of the Greek word interpreted as eternal . I have seen others explain this to you patiently . You seem to not to wish to accept that because it conflicts with your established beliefs . Therefore, the intellectual dishonesty lies on your side , not mine. Your interpretation teaches a God unable to save 2/3 or more of humanity. The Bible teaches that God saves all mankind , though some through corrective suffering .

So , once again, your thread title was erroneous , as are your views on the issue .

Last edited by wallflash; 04-07-2016 at 09:10 AM..
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Old 04-07-2016, 10:01 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,471,098 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
I asked for scriptures please. I get what you are saying but you must prove it in the Bible. Your opinion is not truth to me, only the Bible is truth. You must show in the Bible that the 2nd Death is done away with.
I already explained myself on the above matter.
Quote:
Also you didn't answer if the same Greek word translated at 1 Timothy 1:16 actually means eternal or not.
(Weymouth New Testament) But mercy was shown me in order that in me as the foremost of sinners Christ Jesus might display the fulness of His long-suffering patience as an example to encourage those who would afterwards be resting their faith on Him with a view to the Life of the Ages.

(Young's Literal Translation) but because of this I found kindness, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all long-suffering, for a pattern of those about to believe on him to life age-during

(Concordant Literal Version) But therefore was I shown mercy, that in me, the foremost, Jesus Christ should be displaying all His patience, for a pattern of those who are about to be believing on Him for life eonian."

Eonian life or "age-during life" or "life of the ages" cannot be eternal since the Bible tells us all the eons end. You might rejoin with "Well then we don't have eternal life?" My answer is that believers put on immortality and incorruption (1 Cor.15). When the eons/ages end, we continue living due to being immortal.

Quote:
Truth is not belief. A person can believe that there is no gravity but what is true will be revealed when they jump off a cliff. So you must present truth not what you believe. I have faith that the Bible is truth. I also have found no truth that the translators of all the Bible's where I read that verse in Matthew got it wrong. Is them getting it wrong belief or truth? If you say truth then you have to prove it. Not just because it's what you believe. What you have shown so far falls way short of proof.
What you believe is your own translation you use even if it is an incorrect translation. I have already given you proof that neither aion nor aionios can mean eternal.

Quote:
Perhaps you could show me your creds? Where did you go to school to learn this? Are you published? Why aren't the scholars buzzing with your findings?
Bias.

Quote:
If the fire isn't eternal then the life of the righteous can't be eternal because in Matt 25:46 the same Greek word for eternal is used for both how long the fire will last and how long the righteous will live.
Bingo! The word "fire" is used figuratively. It is not a literal fire. When Israel was in the furnace of fire in Egypt for 400 some years, Egypt was not a literal iron furnace and Egypt was not on fire. The fire is "chastening" and is said to be age-during or eonian which is pertaining to that specific 1000 year eon/age. The life the NATIONS will get will also be pertaining to that eon/age. It likewise is not eternal. How can you give a nation like Russia eternal life when that nation will no longer be around when the earth is destroyed at the end of the 1000 years age/eon and is supplanted by a New Earth?


Quote:
If what you say is the truth, that the translation doesn't really mean eternal, this is going to change more words than just that scripture found at Matthew 25:46. If you're going to jump off the proverbial cliff you should know what is at the bottom of that cliff.
I'm not jumping off any cliff. You are the one who is following all your lemming friends right over the cliff.
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Old 04-07-2016, 10:32 AM
 
741 posts, read 273,629 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post

Quote:
Perhaps you could show me your creds? Where did you go to school to learn this? Are you published? Why aren't the scholars buzzing with your findings?
Bias.
A trolls answer. No proof and the only one in the world that has it right. You are giving me no reasons to trust you have any truth. The amount of data against you is overwhelming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Quote:
Also you didn't answer if the same Greek word translated at 1 Timothy 1:16 actually means eternal or not.
(Weymouth New Testament) But mercy was shown me in order that in me as the foremost of sinners Christ Jesus might display the fulness of His long-suffering patience as an example to encourage those who would afterwards be resting their faith on Him with a view to the Life of the Ages.

(Young's Literal Translation) but because of this I found kindness, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all long-suffering, for a pattern of those about to believe on him to life age-during

(Concordant Literal Version) But therefore was I shown mercy, that in me, the foremost, Jesus Christ should be displaying all His patience, for a pattern of those who are about to be believing on Him for life eonian."

Eonian life or "age-during life" or "life of the ages" cannot be eternal since the Bible tells us all the eons end. You might rejoin with "Well then we don't have eternal life?" My answer is that believers put on immortality and incorruption (1 Cor.15). When the eons/ages end, we continue living due to being immortal.
This is one the most bizarre mental acrobatics I have ever seen. Just when I think I have seen it all. Why in the world would God offer someone the reward of a limited life to a person that already has a limited life? You are suggesting that faith in Jesus really leads to some precursor limited life before immortality. That is the strangest thing I have ever heard. Man, you are off the reservation and more concerned with being right and saving your argument with these claims than truth.

2 Peter 1:11 "you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

That passage uses the word aiōnion to describe God's Kingdom. Are you about to tell me that Kingdom is not actually eternal but that it is limited to only a certain amount of time? God is offering a finite Kingdom? I mean....wow....this is wow....

Even the Weymouth New Testament, that you suggested translates 2 Peter 1:11 "And so a triumphant admission into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ will be freely granted to you."

...I just can't. Good to see there are levels of bizarre people go to just so they can appear to be right, that can still blow my mind.

The theory of no eternal kingdom, no eternal life nor eternal punishment = rejected.

Last edited by 2Timothy316; 04-07-2016 at 10:41 AM..
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:15 AM
 
1,477 posts, read 405,965 times
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Anybody who buys this universal salvation nonsense simply can't read and understand plain english. The book clearly speaks of a judgment coming for the lost not found in the book of life..........they will follow the devil into the lake of fire........

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:02 PM
 
4,851 posts, read 1,480,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vf6cruiser View Post
Anybody who buys this universal salvation nonsense simply can't read and understand plain english. The book clearly speaks of a judgment coming for the lost not found in the book of life..........they will follow the devil into the lake of fire........

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


The problem with your claim is that the Bible was not written in English . It was translated into English from its original languages, often incorrectly .

In addition, the passages you quote are allegorical passages that reference Jewish apocalyptic literature . Readers and interpreters that don't understand Jewish apocalyptic literature are at a loss as to how to understand Revelations.



And lastly, one can be judged , punished , serve the corrective and rehabilitative punishment, and then be reconciled after punishment . Happens to prisoners in prisons all of the world all the time .


And the early church bought this belief in universal reconciliation from the beginning . Many of the greatest of the early church fathers believed in and taught universal reconciliation , including the man called the Father of fathers , Gregory of Nyssa.
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:21 PM
 
9,169 posts, read 2,814,354 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash View Post
The problem with your claim is that the Bible was not written in English . It was translated into English from its original languages, often incorrectly .

In addition, the passages you quote are allegorical passages that reference Jewish apocalyptic literature . Readers and interpreters that don't understand Jewish apocalyptic literature are at a loss as to how to understand Revelations.



And lastly, one can be judged , punished , serve the corrective and rehabilitative punishment, and then be reconciled after punishment . Happens to prisoners in prisons all of the world all the time .


And the early church bought this belief in universal reconciliation from the beginning . Many of the greatest of the early church fathers believed in and taught universal reconciliation , including the man called the Father of fathers , Gregory of Nyssa.


This is true. I've always been at a loss to understand how the churches believe in their interpretations in the first place, seeing how the first sentence of the book says it all....THE REVELATION (means to unveil or uncover-excuse me, but WHERE is He now???) OF JESUS CHRIST, and then John starts talking about how he was IN THE TEMPLE where he saw everything, and that it was ON THE LORD'S DAY. All of these things should be major clues, but they just gloss over them like they do everything else. Peace
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