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Old 04-07-2016, 12:23 PM
 
20,353 posts, read 15,737,455 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It seems that I will have to reply at least this one further time, for all the good it will do.

The error is not mine. And except for Clement of Alexandria all of your quotes in post #122 are of church fathers during the fourth through the sixth centuries. You made the claim in post # 122 that ''The first church father to attack universal reconciliation was Augustine.'' Augustine lived from A.D. 354-430. That's the fourth and fifth centuries. I provided a number of quotes of the early church fathers from the second century in which they expressed their views supporting eternal condemnation.

Any reasonably intelligent person understands that the second century came before the fourth and fifth centuries. This of course means that Augustine was not the first church father to 'attack' universalism. As I said, while there may have been a few people during the second century which held to universalism (Universalism in Christianity is generally traced to Origen (c. A.D 185-253)), it was not the dominant view of the church. And this fact is borne out by Irenaeus who wrote concerning the ''Rule of faith in the church'' in Against Heresies (c. A.D. 175-185).
Against Heresies Book One.

Chapter X.-Unity of the Faith of the Church Throughout the Whole World.

1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send "spiritual wickednesses," and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory.

Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies / Adversus Haereses, Book 1 (Roberts-Donaldson translation)
What Irenaeus is saying is that the church as a whole, up to his time (the late second century), held to the teachings of the apostles, and that included the distinction between those who would go into everlasting fire and those who would go into everlasting glory. And so, again, the dominant view of the early church (during the second century) was not that of Universalism. While Universalism gained some degree of popularity during the succeeding centuries, it did not last, and did not become popular again until, I think, around the 18th or 19th centuries.

And by the way, Irenaeus knew the Greek language and had been a disciple of Polycarp who himself had been a disciple of the apostle John.


And no, a properly interpreted Bible does not even remotely teach Universalism. The distinction between the eternally saved and the eternally lost could not be more clear to any objective and intellectually honest person.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash View Post
To express a differing view, as certain early fathers did, especially on the error prone Latin side that didn't properly understand the Greek scriptures , is not necessarily to attack another's view . I admitted there were adherents of ET. I even pointed out there was an early Chriatian school of theology that taught ET . My point , perhaps not clearly stated on my part , was that no official church attack on universalism as a heresy happened before Augustine . It was not until around 500 AD that the church, on the insistence of an emperor who decided he had the right to influence church theology , began to attack universalism as contrary to church doctrine . Even then the concept met stiff resistance from the church, as many held to the doctrine and it had been a part of church teachings for centuries .

And you can make the erroneous claim all you want that it was not the dominant view . What you cannot do is show why, if eternal torment WAS the dominant view , that even two defenders of eternal torment admitted that most of the church accepted universal reconciliation . Again, this is a statement by two people living in that day who knew the church knew the views, and opposed the view they admitted was more widely followed .Again, WHERE did they learn this ? From reading their nonexistent personal Bibles in their homes and misunderstanding scripture ? No, they learned it from their priests and bishops. Eternal torment was not, as admitted even by its greatest champion and adherent , the dominant view .

The Father of fathers , Gregory of Nyssa , was a universalist . That would not be possible if the church viewed him as a heretic and teacher of heresy regarding salvation .







Your denial has no effect upon actual truth . Once again, is is the ET side that must continually address scriptures that teach UR with " well yeah, BUT...." . You must cherry pick the Bible to eliminate the teaching of universal reconciliation.

And as far as honesty, the one having trouble with intellectual honesty would be the one that continues to use a word that has been shown to him to have been misinterpreted by ill informed Latin interpreters with respect to the meaning of the Greek word interpreted as eternal . I have seen others explain this to you patiently . You seem to not to wish to accept that because it conflicts with your established beliefs . Therefore, the intellectual dishonesty lies on your side , not mine. Your interpretation teaches a God unable to save 2/3 or more of humanity. The Bible teaches that God saves all mankind , though some through corrective suffering .

So , once again, your thread title was erroneous , as are your views on the issue .
I'm sure what I said in post #140 is perfectly clear. You have in post #122 quoted church fathers (including Jerome and Augustine) from the 4th-6th centuries and are trying to apply their statements to the beliefs of the 2nd century church. But as Irenaeus showed in his statement regarding the unity of the Faith of the church throughout the whole world, the dominant belief of the church in the 2nd century was that there were those who would experience everlasting judgment in contrast with those who would have everlasting glory. This of course means that Universalism was NOT a dominant belief in the 2nd century church. As well, I have also previously quoted from other 2nd century church fathers who held to the belief in eternal condemnation.

If everlasting judgment is not unending, then neither can everlasting glory be unending.

Now regarding what Augustine said in ''The Enchiridion,'' written after A.D.420, he writes the following;
112. It is quite in vain, then, that some—indeed very many—yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be. Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture—but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express the literal truth. "God will not forget," they say, "to show mercy, nor in his anger will he shut up his mercy." This is, in fact, the text of a holy psalm.237 But there is no doubt that it is to be interpreted to refer to those who are called "vessels of mercy,"238 those who are freed from misery not by their own merits but through God's mercy. Even so, if they suppose that the text applies to all men, there is no ground for them further to suppose that there can be an end for those of whom it is said, "Thus these shall go into everlasting punishment."239 Otherwise, it can as well be thought that there will also be an end to the happiness of those of whom the antithesis was said: "But the righteous into life eternal."

Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Love - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Again, Augustine wrote concerning the beliefs of ''some - indeed very many'' during his time, and cannot be forced back into the beliefs of the 2nd century church which held more closely to the teachings of the apostles. And as Augustine stated regarding those of his time who did not believe in eternal punishment, they beliefs were based on their feelings.

The Bible is quite clear that in contrast to those who have eternal life, there are those who will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on them (John 3:36).

As to whether 'aion' or any of its derivatives can ever refer to what we call 'eternity,' we have Philo's use of the word with regard to what can only be understood as 'eternity,'

en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. - In eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists.

With regard to Philo's statement,
This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal.

On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal
No, the Bible does not teach Universalism. And while it is God's desire that all men be saved, He made man's volition the issue in whether or not a person will come to Him through Jesus in order to have eternal life.
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:31 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,477,357 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
A trolls answer. No proof and the only one in the world that has it right. You are giving me no reasons to trust you have any truth. The amount of data against you is overwhelming.
But I gave you proof that neither aion nor aionion can mean eternal and quoted Bibles where it is not eternal.


Quote:
This is one the most bizarre mental acrobatics I have ever seen. Just when I think I have seen it all. Why in the world would God offer someone the reward of a limited life to a person that already has a limited life? You are suggesting that faith in Jesus really leads to some precursor limited life before immortality. That is the strangest thing I have ever heard. Man, you are off the reservation and more concerned with being right and saving your argument with these claims than truth.
But God doesn't give us a limited life. How do you equate immortality and incorruption with a limited life?

Quote:
2 Peter 1:11 "you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

That passage uses the word aiōnion to describe God's Kingdom. Are you about to tell me that Kingdom is not actually eternal but that it is limited to only a certain amount of time? God is offering a finite Kingdom? I mean....wow....this is wow....

Even the Weymouth New Testament, that you suggested translates 2 Peter 1:11 "And so a triumphant admission into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ will be freely granted to you."
Yes, even Weymouth messed up on that verse. Just as some translations use "eternal" and "never" for the same word that you subscribe to.

2 Peter 1:11

(GNT) οὕτω γὰρ πλουσίως ἐπιχορηγηθήσεται ὑμῖν ἡ εἴσοδος εἰς τὴν αἰώνιον βασιλείαν τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ.

(GNT-V) ουτως γαρ πλουσιως επιχορηγηθησεται υμιν η εισοδος εις την αιωνιον βασιλειαν του κυριου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου

(GNT-WH+) ουτωςG3779 ADV γαρG1063 CONJ πλουσιωςG4146 ADV επιχορηγηθησεταιG2023 V-FPI-3S υμινG4771 P-2DP ηG3588 T-NSF εισοδοςG1529 N-NSF ειςG1519 PREP τηνG3588 T-ASF αιωνιονG166 A-ASF βασιλειανG932 N-ASF τουG3588 T-GSM κυριουG2962 N-GSM ημωνG1473 P-1GP καιG2532 CONJ σωτηροςG4990 N-GSM ιησουG2424 N-GSM χριστουG5547 N-GSM

(LXX+WH+) ουτωςG3779 ADV γαρG1063 CONJ πλουσιωςG4146 ADV επιχορηγηθησεταιG2023[G5701] V-FPI-3S υμινG5213 P-2DP ηG3588 T-NSF εισοδοςG1529 N-NSF ειςG1519 PREP τηνG3588 T-ASF αιωνιονG166 A-ASF βασιλειανG932 N-ASF τουG3588 T-GSM κυριουG2962 N-GSM ημωνG2257 P-1GP καιG2532 CONJ σωτηροςG4990 N-GSM ιησουG2424 N-GSM χριστουG5547 N-GSM

(YLT) for so, richly shall be superadded to you the entrance into the age-during reign of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

(CLV) For thus will be richly supplied to you the entrance into the eonian kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Peter was writing to the dispersed Israelite believers. The kingdom they are to enter into is the millennial kingdom of Jesus in Israel when Christ returns. It is not eternal but is pertaining to the eon(s) as the case may be. One day Christ will quit reigning and then God will be All in all and no longer need for Christ to subject people to Himself.



Quote:
...I just can't. Good to see there are levels of bizarre people go to just so they can appear to be right, that can still blow my mind.

The theory of no eternal kingdom, no eternal life nor eternal punishment = rejected.
No, there is no such thing as "eternal punishment." If there were, it would contradict too many scriptures where God is going to make all mankind righteous (Romans 5:18,19) due to Christ's obedience . . . reconcile all mankind due to the blood of Christ's cross (Colossians 1:20), head up all in the heavens and all on the earth in Christ (Ephesians 1:9,10), Save all mankind because Christ ransomed all mankind (1 Timothy 2:4-6) and is in fact all mankind's Saviour (1 Timothy 4:10) and which we are supposed to teach (1 Timothy 4:11).

Believers get to live for the duration of the non-eternal eons to come and some bad nations have to endure chastening in the coming non-eternal eon.
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:33 PM
 
4,851 posts, read 1,483,436 times
Reputation: 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I'm sure what I said in post #140 is perfectly clear. You have in post #122 quoted church fathers (including Jerome and Augustine) from the 4th-6th centuries and are trying to apply their statements to the beliefs of the 2nd century church. But as Irenaeus showed in his statement regarding the unity of the Faith of the church throughout the whole world, the dominant belief of the church in the 2nd century was that there were those who would experience everlasting judgment in contrast with those who would have everlasting glory. This of course means that Universalism was NOT a dominant belief in the 2nd century church. As well, I have also previously quoted from other 2nd century church fathers who held to the belief in eternal condemnation.

If everlasting judgment is not unending, then neither can everlasting glory be unending.

Now regarding what Augustine said in ''The Enchiridion,'' written after A.D.420, he writes the following;
112. It is quite in vain, then, that some—indeed very many—yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be. Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture—but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express the literal truth. "God will not forget," they say, "to show mercy, nor in his anger will he shut up his mercy." This is, in fact, the text of a holy psalm.237 But there is no doubt that it is to be interpreted to refer to those who are called "vessels of mercy,"238 those who are freed from misery not by their own merits but through God's mercy. Even so, if they suppose that the text applies to all men, there is no ground for them further to suppose that there can be an end for those of whom it is said, "Thus these shall go into everlasting punishment."239 Otherwise, it can as well be thought that there will also be an end to the happiness of those of whom the antithesis was said: "But the righteous into life eternal."

Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Love - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Again, Augustine wrote concerning the beliefs of ''some - indeed very many'' during his time, and cannot be forced back into the beliefs of the 2nd century church which held more closely to the teachings of the apostles. And as Augustine stated regarding those of his time who did not believe in eternal punishment, they beliefs were based on their feelings.

The Bible is quite clear that in contrast to those who have eternal life, there are those who will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on them (John 3:36).

As to whether 'aion' or any of its derivatives can ever refer to what we call 'eternity,' we have Philo's use of the word with regard to what can only be understood as 'eternity,'

en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. - In eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists.

With regard to Philo's statement,
This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal.

On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal
No, the Bible does not teach Universalism. And while it is God's desire that all men be saved, He made man's volition the issue in whether or not a person will come to Him through Jesus in order to have eternal life.


LOL . Of course Mike the English speaker reading a mistranslated Bible in 2016 is totally correct in his interpretation of the Bible , while the Greek church fathers who very plainly taught universal reconciliation didn't understand their own language . You bet .

Nor did you refute the points of Jerome or Augustine that a universalist view was widely held among Christians . Your best argument seems to be that a lot of early Christians simply chose to disbelieve the teachings of their priests in favor of their own emotions . Yeah, you bet .

You are in error. You are just too entrenched in your error to admit it . The Bible conflicts itself if your view is correct , as it says opposing things about the salvation of all men . Only universalism with corrective suffering allows an interpretation of the Bible that doesn't resort to cherry picking to get around the parts a reader doesn't like .
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:37 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,477,357 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I'm sure what I said in post #140 is perfectly clear. You have in post #122 quoted church fathers (including Jerome and Augustine) from the 4th-6th centuries and are trying to apply their statements to the beliefs of the 2nd century church. But as Irenaeus showed in his statement regarding the unity of the Faith of the church throughout the whole world, the dominant belief of the church in the 2nd century was that there were those who would experience everlasting judgment in contrast with those who would have everlasting glory. This of course means that Universalism was NOT a dominant belief in the 2nd century church. As well, I have also previously quoted from other 2nd century church fathers who held to the belief in eternal condemnation.

If everlasting judgment is not unending, then neither can everlasting glory be unending.

Now regarding what Augustine said in ''The Enchiridion,'' written after A.D.420, he writes the following;
112. It is quite in vain, then, that some—indeed very many—yield to merely human feelings and deplore the notion of the eternal punishment of the damned and their interminable and perpetual misery. They do not believe that such things will be. Not that they would go counter to divine Scripture—but, yielding to their own human feelings, they soften what seems harsh and give a milder emphasis to statements they believe are meant more to terrify than to express the literal truth. "God will not forget," they say, "to show mercy, nor in his anger will he shut up his mercy." This is, in fact, the text of a holy psalm.237 But there is no doubt that it is to be interpreted to refer to those who are called "vessels of mercy,"238 those who are freed from misery not by their own merits but through God's mercy. Even so, if they suppose that the text applies to all men, there is no ground for them further to suppose that there can be an end for those of whom it is said, "Thus these shall go into everlasting punishment."239 Otherwise, it can as well be thought that there will also be an end to the happiness of those of whom the antithesis was said: "But the righteous into life eternal."

Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Love - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Again, Augustine wrote concerning the beliefs of ''some - indeed very many'' during his time, and cannot be forced back into the beliefs of the 2nd century church which held more closely to the teachings of the apostles. And as Augustine stated regarding those of his time who did not believe in eternal punishment, they beliefs were based on their feelings.

The Bible is quite clear that in contrast to those who have eternal life, there are those who will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on them (John 3:36).

As to whether 'aion' or any of its derivatives can ever refer to what we call 'eternity,' we have Philo's use of the word with regard to what can only be understood as 'eternity,'

en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. - In eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists.

With regard to Philo's statement,
This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal.

On the Greek words for Eternity and Eternal
No, the Bible does not teach Universalism. And while it is God's desire that all men be saved, He made man's volition the issue in whether or not a person will come to Him through Jesus in order to have eternal life.
As to your link above, Darby said: "Aion in Greek properly means "eternity.'" If that is the case, why is it often translated as "age"? And how can Aion mean "eternity" when the bible states that all the aions will end?

Here is a writing by me on Augustine and Matthew 25:46:
Augustine and eternal torment
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:46 PM
 
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You all would be wise to listen to Eusebius....Peace
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:53 PM
 
20,353 posts, read 15,737,455 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
As to your link above, Darby said: "Aion in Greek properly means "eternity.'" If that is the case, why is it often translated as "age"? And how can Aion mean "eternity" when the bible states that all the aions will end?

Here is a writing by me on Augustine and Matthew 25:46:
Augustine and eternal torment
We've had this discussion before Eusebius. I'll not go over it again with you. Ask Philo why he used 'aion' for what can only be understood as eternity. Oh wait. You can't. He's dead.
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:55 PM
 
20,353 posts, read 15,737,455 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
You all would be wise to listen to Eusebius....Peace
No, ''we all'' would not.
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:58 PM
 
741 posts, read 273,978 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
But I gave you proof that neither aion nor aionion can mean eternal and quoted Bibles where it is not eternal.




But God doesn't give us a limited life. How do you equate immortality and incorruption with a limited life?



Yes, even Weymouth messed up on that verse. Just as some translations use "eternal" and "never" for the same word that you subscribe to.

2 Peter 1:11

(GNT) οὕτω γὰρ πλουσίως ἐπιχορηγηθήσεται ὑμῖν ἡ εἴσοδος εἰς τὴν αἰώνιον βασιλείαν τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ.

(GNT-V) ουτως γαρ πλουσιως επιχορηγηθησεται υμιν η εισοδος εις την αιωνιον βασιλειαν του κυριου ημων και σωτηρος ιησου χριστου

(GNT-WH+) ουτωςG3779 ADV γαρG1063 CONJ πλουσιωςG4146 ADV επιχορηγηθησεταιG2023 V-FPI-3S υμινG4771 P-2DP ηG3588 T-NSF εισοδοςG1529 N-NSF ειςG1519 PREP τηνG3588 T-ASF αιωνιονG166 A-ASF βασιλειανG932 N-ASF τουG3588 T-GSM κυριουG2962 N-GSM ημωνG1473 P-1GP καιG2532 CONJ σωτηροςG4990 N-GSM ιησουG2424 N-GSM χριστουG5547 N-GSM

(LXX+WH+) ουτωςG3779 ADV γαρG1063 CONJ πλουσιωςG4146 ADV επιχορηγηθησεταιG2023[G5701] V-FPI-3S υμινG5213 P-2DP ηG3588 T-NSF εισοδοςG1529 N-NSF ειςG1519 PREP τηνG3588 T-ASF αιωνιονG166 A-ASF βασιλειανG932 N-ASF τουG3588 T-GSM κυριουG2962 N-GSM ημωνG2257 P-1GP καιG2532 CONJ σωτηροςG4990 N-GSM ιησουG2424 N-GSM χριστουG5547 N-GSM

(YLT) for so, richly shall be superadded to you the entrance into the age-during reign of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

(CLV) For thus will be richly supplied to you the entrance into the eonian kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Peter was writing to the dispersed Israelite believers. The kingdom they are to enter into is the millennial kingdom of Jesus in Israel when Christ returns. It is not eternal but is pertaining to the eon(s) as the case may be. One day Christ will quit reigning and then God will be All in all and no longer need for Christ to subject people to Himself.





No, there is no such thing as "eternal punishment." If there were, it would contradict too many scriptures where God is going to make all mankind righteous (Romans 5:18,19) due to Christ's obedience . . . reconcile all mankind due to the blood of Christ's cross (Colossians 1:20), head up all in the heavens and all on the earth in Christ (Ephesians 1:9,10), Save all mankind because Christ ransomed all mankind (1 Timothy 2:4-6) and is in fact all mankind's Saviour (1 Timothy 4:10) and which we are supposed to teach (1 Timothy 4:11).

Believers get to live for the duration of the non-eternal eons to come and some bad nations have to endure chastening in the coming non-eternal eon.
Even if Jesus is only King for 1000 years. The Kingdom itself doesn't go away. When a country changes leaders the country doesn't disappear. So your translation fails. I mean really man you seriously don't think the reward is a limited life from our already limited life in a finite Kingdom. That scripture was not talking about Jesus' rule. It was talking about the whole Kingdom.

And yes there is eternal punishment yet there is no eternal torture. The eternal punishment is death forever and the dead know nothing. Matthew 25:46 Ecclesiastes 9:5

So I know you're asking me to jump of the cliff with you but I will have to respectfully decline, because this is lunacy.
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Old 04-07-2016, 01:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
Even if Jesus is only King for 1000 years. The Kingdom itself doesn't go away. When a country changes leaders the country doesn't disappear. So your translation fails.
Jesus will rule during the thousand year reign in Israel. When that eon ends, the earth is destroyed and a New Earth comes and Christ rules also in the New Earth eon.

The kingdom Jesus had will be handed over the His Father when Christ quits reigning.


Quote:
I mean really man you seriously don't think the reward is a limited life from our already limited life in a finite Kingdom. That scripture was not talking about Jesus' rule. It was talking about the whole Kingdom.
I don't believe believers of the nations are rewarded with eonian life. It is gratuitously given, unearned.
You keep harping on a "limited life." How is an immortal and indissoluble life limited? Please answer me.

Quote:
And yes there is eternal punishment yet there is no eternal torture. The eternal punishment is death forever and the dead know nothing. Matthew 25:46 Ecclesiastes 9:5
No, it is eonian chastening. Since eonian is derived from its noun form "eon" and since no eon is eternal, how can its adjectival form which tells us of that which pertains to the eon be eternal since the Bible says all the eons end? Please answer me.

Quote:
So I know you're asking me to jump of the cliff with you but I will have to respectfully decline, because this is lunacy.
I'm not jumping off any cliff so why would I ask you to jump off a cliff. You are just following the lemmings.
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Old 04-07-2016, 01:41 PM
 
4,111 posts, read 1,476,737 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
You all would be wise to listen to Eusebius....Peace



This is what God said---This is my son the beloved in whom I am well pleased--LISTEN TO HIM.
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