U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 04-09-2016, 03:18 PM
 
4,851 posts, read 1,461,384 times
Reputation: 1571

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
The fact that you have to ask tells me you don't. That is where the whole problem is and no discussion can move forward until we agree on the one point that the Bible was authored by God. If we did agree then all of this would be solved quickly. Rather than fight the Bible those that believe in universal salvation have taken the fight to the translation of words. The Bible expressly warns us against that. It says it leads to harm and ungodliness. It says we are to do our utmost to present ourselves approved. Why do that if everyone is saved? It makes zero sense.

"Keep reminding them of these things, instructing them before God not to fight about words, something of no usefulness at all because it harms those listening. Do your utmost to present yourself approved to God, a workman with nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of the truth aright.But reject empty speeches that violate what is holy, for they will lead to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene." - 2 Tim 2:14-17

2 Timothy 2:14 Keep reminding God's people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

For the record moving forward, was the entire Bible authored by God? Yes or no.


Yes, Christian universalists believe the Bible was authored by God . That's why they use the Bible to disprove the false concept of eternal torment . If they didn't believe the Bible , they wouldn't quote it to support their theology.


None of this though has the slightest thing to do with the meaning of Greek words . Your theology is based on a misinterpretation of certain Greek words . By basing it on such, you miss the meaning of the words as the Bible intended . The NT was written in the Greek . Therefore , the MEANING of the Greek words is of utmost importance , and when some get mistranslated, as happened when the Greek word for eon was mistranslated into Latin as eternal, it changed the meaning of what the Bible is teaching .

Again, YOUR understanding of Hell is based on Catholic teaching which in itself is based on an erroneous translation of the Greek by unqualified Latin translators .
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-09-2016, 04:09 PM
 
741 posts, read 270,995 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash View Post
Yes, Christian universalists believe the Bible was authored by God . That's why they use the Bible to disprove the false concept of eternal torment . If they didn't believe the Bible , they wouldn't quote it to support their theology.


None of this though has the slightest thing to do with the meaning of Greek words . Your theology is based on a misinterpretation of certain Greek words . By basing it on such, you miss the meaning of the words as the Bible intended . The NT was written in the Greek . Therefore , the MEANING of the Greek words is of utmost importance , and when some get mistranslated, as happened when the Greek word for eon was mistranslated into Latin as eternal, it changed the meaning of what the Bible is teaching .

Again, YOUR understanding of Hell is based on Catholic teaching which in itself is based on an erroneous translation of the Greek by unqualified Latin translators .
Actually you are mistaken about what I think of Hell. Hell is mankind's grave and according to the Bible no one feels or thinks anything when they are dead. Jumping to conclusions and assumptions....

I'm glad that you think the Bible is the Word of God. Knowing this, do you think that God would allow His message to be changed so drastically and not correct it? Because that is what you are claiming. That God let a huge mistake slip through. Yet if we look at the whole Bible we always see there are two choices. The blessing or the curse. Eternal Life or eternal death. The Bible was written to set matters straight and for teaching. Why would it teach us to make a choice if there really is no choice. This is starting to sound a lot like others that believe that in predestination. Like people have no say in the matter. Only they believe some are predestined for eternal fire and some for eternal life in heaven. I say both beliefs are wrong. Any doctrine that says that we don't have a choice to choose life or death is not the message of the Bible. It says that over and over again. If there was no choice there would be no need for a Bible at all and if there was then it would have one sentence. 'Don't worry I got this' - The End.

Like the other so many others, you're using eisegesis to interpret the Bible. You have preconceived idea and then go in to the Bible to support your idea.

What is the difference between exegesis and eisegesis?

https://translate.google.com/#el/en/...B9%CE%BF%CF%82

Even Google gets it right. They are not biased.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2016, 04:43 PM
 
4,851 posts, read 1,461,384 times
Reputation: 1571
So the Google translation, translated by .....wait for it......an English speaker trying to properly translate Ancient Greek is more reliable in your opinion than the original Greek speakers of the primitive church for whom is was their native language .


LOL. Ah, you guys kill me .


Nonetheless , while we can argue over Greek words, two things remain. The early church on the Greek side taught universal reconciliation , while the Catholics that taught eternal torment also taught that babies went to an eternal torment in Hell , and that there was no forgiveness if a person ever sinned after being originally forgiven .

Second, the eternal torment version teaches that God cannot really accomplish what he wanted . For all his efforts , most of humanity will spend an eternity in eternal torment even though he tried to avoid that . Universal reconciliation teaches that God accomplishes ALL his objectives and desires.


The angry God version of Catholics and Protestants is not original Christianity, but a corrupted version created by Catholics and inherited by Protestants . Universal reconciliation and the loving God who will ultimately bring everyone home is not some new modern liberal version of Christianity but rather the original version taught before the Catholics achieve power and forced their view on all of Christianity.

You don't have to look to hard to see which is the more majestic and powerful vision of God .

Last edited by wallflash; 04-09-2016 at 05:10 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2016, 05:08 PM
 
741 posts, read 270,995 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash View Post
So the Google translation, translated by .....wait for it......an English speaker trying to properly translate Ancient Greek is more reliable in your opinion than the original Greek speakers of the primitive church for whom is was their native language .


LOL. Ah, you guys kill me .
Google is not the only one, all of them do. Seems to me that you are the "an English speaker trying to properly translate Ancient Greek". The English to Greek dictionary does as well. They are more reliable then a person that uses eisegesis to translate.

How about an actual Greek website?

Η αιώνια ζωή και η αιώνια κόλαση | Χριστιανική Φοιτητική Δράση
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2016, 05:12 PM
 
4,851 posts, read 1,461,384 times
Reputation: 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
Google is not the only one, all of them do. Seems to me that you are the "an English speaker trying to properly translate Ancient Greek". The English to Greek dictionary does as well. They are more reliable then a person that uses eisegesis to translate.

How about an actual Greek website?

— αιŽνια ζ‰ή και η αιŽνια κŒλαƒη | Χρ郄ιανική Φοι„η„ική ”ράƒη



I am not an English speaker trying to translate Greek . I am an English speaker accepting what the original Greek speaking fathers taught about Christianity and universal reconciliation.

You are free to continue in your puny corrupted Catholic version if you wish .
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2016, 05:27 PM
 
741 posts, read 270,995 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash View Post
I am not an English speaker trying to translate Greek . I am an English speaker accepting what the original Greek speaking fathers taught about Christianity and universal reconciliation.

You are free to continue in your puny corrupted Catholic version if you wish .
Wow even with an actual Greek website using the word eternal correctly isn't enough. Well, if you are claiming the Greeks have it wrong will gee I guess there is no where else to go. According to your beliefs, at some point I will not be 'free' to choose anything. It appears God is going to rearrange my brain to believe what God wants me to believe. Another flaw in this reasoning, why didn't God just make every like that in the first place? It's the same issue with those that think that God has predestined some for death and some for life. Why didn't he just predestine folks for life and make them choose Him? Why even give people a choice? Why give Adam and Eve a choice? Obey or Don't. Life or Death. Free choice is how love can even exist. The choice not to love is how we can love at all. God wants us to choose Him. There is no other reason for the Bible other than for people to know why to choose Him and what happens to those that don't. If there was no choice why write it at all? To write it when we are all going to be forced to God's ways with no choice anyway would be a colossal waste of time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2016, 07:12 PM
 
37,472 posts, read 25,217,301 times
Reputation: 5851
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
It appears God is going to rearrange my brain to believe what God wants me to believe. Another flaw in this reasoning, why didn't God just make every like that in the first place? It's the same issue with those that think that God has predestined some for death and some for life. Why didn't he just predestine folks for life and make them choose Him? Why even give people a choice? Why give Adam and Eve a choice? Obey or Don't. Life or Death. Free choice is how love can even exist. The choice not to love is how we can love at all. God wants us to choose Him.
We had to be born physically and LEARN everything to be able to function in the physical world. We also need to lLEARN spiritually how to enter the Spiritual world when we die. Our Spirits start out as a seed of consciousness but we are in a fully operational physical body with survival and other needs that drive our motivation. Our Spirit must grow and learn who to properly control and guide our physical body to produce a strong Spirit.Our spirit grows through phases like anything else. we are a seed, then a seedling, then as a sprout, then a developing tree, then a teenage tree, then an adult tree, then a Senior tree and then, hopefully, eventually a mighty Oak.We do not and should not expect the capabilities and performance to be the same in all the stages. That is preposterous. When God taught our seedling Adam and Eve their first lesson about Good and Evil, we began our education toward wisdom in fear of God - the beginning of wisdom, but it is NOT the end - agape love IS.
Quote:
There is no other reason for the Bible other than for people to know why to choose Him and what happens to those that don't. If there was no choice why write it at all? To write it when we are all going to be forced to God's ways with no choice anyway would be a colossal waste of time.
The process of learning and education is not a waste of time. It is the way all life proceeds toward maturity. Why on earth would we expect our spiritual maturity to be otherwise?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2016, 07:22 PM
 
741 posts, read 270,995 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The process of learning and education is not a waste of time. It is the way all life proceeds toward maturity. Why on earth would we expect our spiritual maturity to be otherwise?
It is a waste if what we are learning is why to choose God. There can be no love if there is no choice to love or not to love. It's like a person that keeps a person hostage, even torturing them in the hopes that the person one day will love them. Universal salvation sounds horrible. Programmed robots to do whatever God says with no choice is not love. It's like a bad Lifetime movie. Someone might says, 'Would you rather die?' My answer would be if someone else has programmed my mind and I'm not in control, I'm as much alive as a robot....not alive at all.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2016, 07:22 PM
 
4,851 posts, read 1,461,384 times
Reputation: 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
Wow even with an actual Greek website using the word eternal correctly isn't enough. Well, if you are claiming the Greeks have it wrong will gee I guess there is no where else to go. According to your beliefs, at some point I will not be 'free' to choose anything. It appears God is going to rearrange my brain to believe what God wants me to believe. Another flaw in this reasoning, why didn't God just make every like that in the first place? It's the same issue with those that think that God has predestined some for death and some for life. Why didn't he just predestine folks for life and make them choose Him? Why even give people a choice? Why give Adam and Eve a choice? Obey or Don't. Life or Death. Free choice is how love can even exist. The choice not to love is how we can love at all. God wants us to choose Him. There is no other reason for the Bible other than for people to know why to choose Him and what happens to those that don't. If there was no choice why write it at all? To write it when we are all going to be forced to God's ways with no choice anyway would be a colossal waste of time.



Well you have two things wrong in your post .

One , I'm not claiming the Greeks have it WRONG , I am claiming the Greek fathers that spoke Greek as their native language AND understood the intentions of the words relative to Christianity had it RIGHT . And their position, as shown by my quotes , was that those not reconciled in this life will be reconciled through corrective suffering after death . Any issues you have with that puts you at odds not with me, but with the early church fathers .

Two, no one suggests God will turn sinners into robots . I am quite sure with a little thought you can grasp how the concept of corrective punishment and voluntary change works .

Again, universal reconciliation is not some new fangled liberal heresy , it is a continuation of the doctrine of the early church on the non Catholic side .

BTW, you can see the results of other Latin church errors here in the forum on the " Do babies go to Hell" thread . This same mindset and theology spawned the eternal Hell concept as well as the babies in Hell idea . Good bunch of guys to hang your doctrine on, those Latin fathers .

Last edited by wallflash; 04-09-2016 at 08:42 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2016, 07:36 PM
 
37,472 posts, read 25,217,301 times
Reputation: 5851
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
We had to be born physically and LEARN everything to be able to function in the physical world. We also need to lLEARN spiritually how to enter the Spiritual world when we die. Our Spirits start out as a seed of consciousness but we are in a fully operational physical body with survival and other needs that drive our motivation. Our Spirit must grow and learn who to properly control and guide our physical body to produce a strong Spirit.Our spirit grows through phases like anything else. we are a seed, then a seedling, then as a sprout, then a developing tree, then a teenage tree, then an adult tree, then a Senior tree and then, hopefully, eventually a mighty Oak.We do not and should not expect the capabilities and performance to be the same in all the stages. That is preposterous. When God taught our seedling Adam and Eve their first lesson about Good and Evil, we began our education toward wisdom in fear of God - the beginning of wisdom, but it is NOT the end - agape love IS. The process of learning and education is not a waste of time. It is the way all life proceeds toward maturity. Why on earth would we expect our spiritual maturity to be otherwise?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
It is a waste if what we are learning is why to choose God. There can be no love if there is no choice to love or not to love. It's like a person that keeps a person hostage, even torturing them in the hopes that the person one day will love them. Universal salvation sounds horrible. Programmed robots to do whatever God says with no choice is not love. It's like a bad Lifetime movie. Someone might says, 'Would you rather die?' My answer would be if someone else has programmed my mind and I'm not in control, I'm as much alive as a robot....not alive at all.
Clearly you misunderstand Christian Universalism. There is no robotics involved. We are all free to learn and choose what we will believe and do, but that learning and choosing will not end with our death. We simply have to learn and develop enough to be viable when born as a baby Spirit upon our physical death - just like any physical baby in a mother's womb. This physical existence is our spiritual womb and it will be cast off when we are born as Spirit - jut as the physical placenta is. That is why carnal thinking and acting is discouraged and spiritual development is encouraged.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top