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The word "eternal" should have no place in any bible. Then you really don't agree that usage determines a word's meaning. I accept a number of literal translations. But I do prefer the Concordant Literal New Testament. I already told you the Bible says all the eons end. So how can they be eternal?
If that PhD'd linguist disagrees with the Bible, of course I wouldn't accept their misunderstanding.
That's what I figured. Very well lets say that everyone is allowed to live forever. I still have not heard an answer to my question about those that would rather die than live forever. As hard as it is to believe, there are those that do not want anything to do with God and would rather die than have anything to do with Him. What about those that hate God so much that they would kill or (if killing is not possible) torture those that do love and serve God? Do you realize that you are describing a real Hell if those people are allowed to do what they want? There was no Hell before but if you are correct, the doctrine of universal salvation creates Hell.
So the answer is a no then, got it. I can see your mind is shut on this issue. So be it.
So I'm curious though. There are other flaws though. Lets imagine what this world will be like. What will happen to all those that would rather die then serve the True God? Is there room for those that choose to not follow God and kill those that do in your future world? What if God takes away the ability to die or kill and those that hate God begin torturing others alive?
LOL. My mind is shut because I would trust the early Greek church fathers who understood original Christianity , spoke and read Greek as their native language ( unlike the two main Latin fathers Augustine and Tertullian , who had to have the manuscripts translated into Latin for them, and so made doctrinal errors as a result ),and understood better than anyone living since their time how the Greek was meant to be understood relative to Christianity , over a modern day interpreter.
I suppose you don't even realize how silly your argument is .
LOL. My mind is shut because I would trust the early Greek church fathers who understood original Christianity , spoke and read Greek as their native language ( unlike the two main Latin fathers Augustine and Tertullian , who had to have the manuscripts translated into Latin for them, and so made doctrinal errors as a result ),and understood better than anyone living since their time how the Greek was meant to be understood relative to Christianity , over a modern day interpreter.
I suppose you don't even realize how silly your argument is .
You're mind is made up, I get it, so let's move on. So what about my other questions. So far everyone has been ignoring them. I have a real worry that your doctrine is going to create hellish place full of those that hate God, what to hurt all those that follow do love God. Well they be allowed to torture whoever they want? What about those who would rather die than live forever? Will people be forced to love God? Do you force those around you to love you? If you do, how do you do it? How will God do it and why did He allow people the option to not love Him in the first place?
You're mind is made up, I get it, so let's move on.
On what basis do you believe I am wrong?
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So what about my other questions. So far everyone has been ignoring them. I have a real worry that your doctrine is going to create hellish place full of those that hate God,
Why? Where do you get this from?
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what to hurt all those that follow do love God.
What do you mean , and what do you base this on?
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Well they be allowed to torture whoever they want?
Will who be allowed to tortue who?
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What about those who would rather die than live forever?
What about those in Hell eternally who want to die to escape your eternal torment ? Eternal punishment is somehow more humane than limited finite corrective punishment ?
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Will people be forced to love God? Do you force those around you to love you? If you do, how do you do it?
Since it is logical that in Heaven we would see our condition with true eyes , I think it probable that people will understand the love and how they have been mistaken. I think it rather like having a mental illness that is cured by taking medication. If you understand your before and after states with and without meds, and if the before ill state is awful and the after normal state is pleasant, who wouldn't take the meds willingly and gratefully?
You're mind is made up, I get it, so let's move on. So what about my other questions. So far everyone has been ignoring them. I have a real worry that your doctrine is going to create hellish place full of those that hate God, what to hurt all those that follow do love God. Well they be allowed to torture whoever they want? What about those who would rather die than live forever? Will people be forced to love God? Do you force those around you to love you? If you do, how do you do it? How will God do it and why did He allow people the option to not love Him in the first place?
You are assuming that God can not change the hearts of the kind people you are describing.
Universal reconciliation does not mean God forces those who would not serve Him to serve Him and to be some place they do not want to be. Rather, it means God softens their hearts, teaches them, converts them so that the do want to serve God.
That would matter if you will agree with the translations at any of those sites. At least that would be something to work with. I have used the translations there and all of them have been shot down as inaccurate too.
So, do you agree with those translations at Bible Gateway or Bible Hub as legitimate and accurate? ... [snip]
I have not found anyone here that has a degree in Greek translation. Do you have a degree in Greek to English translation?
Yes. Satisfied?
I know of one who that has such degree here.
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Originally Posted by 2Timothy316
I await your answer, but keep in mind, if your answer is no then your point is moot about the NWT. If you answer yes then you're theology is going to be shown as a lie using another translation.
A refusal to answer with anything other than a yes or no answer will be accepted as a no answer.
Really .... well since Satan lost with that bravado when the Deity (aka Trinity) took on human form as Jesus who lived \ died \ and rose physically to be the perfect substitute, there is not much suspense in the failure rate of those trying to prove us wrong.
Last edited by twin.spin; 04-19-2016 at 09:17 PM..
That's what I figured. Very well lets say that everyone is allowed to live forever. I still have not heard an answer to my question about those that would rather die than live forever. As hard as it is to believe, there are those that do not want anything to do with God and would rather die than have anything to do with Him. What about those that hate God so much that they would kill or (if killing is not possible) torture those that do love and serve God? Do you realize that you are describing a real Hell if those people are allowed to do what they want? There was no Hell before but if you are correct, the doctrine of universal salvation creates Hell.
All mankind sin and are wanting of the glory of God. "All avoid Him." "There are none righteous, no not one."
Since all mankind avoid God, how is it that some quit avoiding Him? It is due to Him intercepting us while we avoid Him.
The chief of sinners wrote this concerning God intercepting him:
1Ti 1:14-16 Yet the grace of our Lord overwhelms, with faith and love in Christ Jesus." (15) Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all welcome, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, foremost of whom am I." (16) But therefore was I shown mercy, that in me, the foremost, Jesus Christ should be displaying all His patience, for a pattern of those who are about to be believing on Him for life eonian."
Did you see that? God overwhelmed Paul with faith and love in Christ Jesus. He was shown mercy. And Paul said his salvation is a pattern of those who are about to be believing on Him for life eonian. So God saves us like He saved Paul.
The rest of mankind remain avoiding Him until He overwhelms them with faith and love in Christ Jesus.
So no amount of resistance can keep God from saving all mankind. So if God can save us, the worst of the worst, the rest should be a piece of cake.
What about those in Hell eternally who want to die to escape your eternal torment ? Eternal punishment is somehow more humane than limited finite corrective punishment ?
Since it is logical that in Heaven we would see our condition with true eyes , I think it probable that people will understand the love and how they have been mistaken. I think it rather like having a mental illness that is cured by taking medication. If you understand your before and after states with and without meds, and if the before ill state is awful and the after normal state is pleasant, who wouldn't take the meds willingly and gratefully?
You answered none of my questions. I will wait for real answers.
JUDAS
Here is why the case of Judas does not disprove universal salvation.
Because of the betrayal of Judas, Jesus was introduced to the woe of extreme suffering. It would have been better for Jesus if Judas had not been born.
Greek scholar Louis Abbott wrote:
"Let us look carefully at the Greek text: kalon ên auto eiouk egennêthê ho anthropos ekeinos, "Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born" or "It were ideal for Him if that man was not born." The question is asked, Who is the Him? The answer is in the preceding clause. There we have the pronoun autou, "Him," and anthropo ekeino, "that man," both referred to in such a way that we cannot mistake them. "The Son of Man indeed goeth as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!" "Him" is the Son of Man, "that man" is Judas.
The Him cannot refer to Judas, therefore the text can be paraphrased as, "Ideal were it for Him (the Son of Man) if that man (Judas) were not born."
That is the understanding that the syntax requires.
Therefore, Mark 14:21 does not contradict Col. 1:15-20; 1 Tim. 4:9-11; Rom. 5:18, 19; etc., all teaching the ultimate salvation of Judas."
Judas had to die exactly how he died, he was part of the sacrifice. Many people played a role in many sacrifices like Judas, John the Baptist, Barabbas and others. Jesus was all the sacrifices and sacrifices aren't always done the same way. Jesus was the lamb, the goat, the red heifer, the Sukkot bull, the ram.
Judas was even shown trying to strangle himself and this was just showing that a sacrifice cannot be strangled. He couldn't have strangled himself is a thousand people were there helping him.{Just to make a point about how a sacrifice couldn't be strangled.}
The sacrifice with Judas and John is that the head must be cut off and viewed by the authorities for it's intent, and likewise with the intestines, the intestines have to be viewed and put in their place and the head is put in it's place.
Judas was the left arm, John was in the middle with his head, and Jesus was the right arm in that view. But we look at another and Jesus is in the middle and the left arm MUST be cursed and so only the right arm is saved. {like the two at the cross}
I have hopes for Judas, grand hopes, I know he isn't an overcomer and so he will never enter into the zoe kingdom, but I do believe that he is in the outer court with his salvation, but salvation alone is a sad thing.
You answered none of my questions. I will wait for real answers.
I have asked for explanation of what you mean and where you are seeing these ideas expressed so I know what is being discussed . Who do you think will be allowed to torture who under UR , for example .I truly don't get what you are suggesting here . If you don't want to provide that no skin off my nose . My main goal today was NOT discussing issues with 2 Tim, believe it or not .
Explain a little more to further the discussion or not, up to you
Last edited by wallflash; 04-20-2016 at 07:38 AM..
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