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Old 04-20-2016, 08:25 AM
 
741 posts, read 271,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post

It is not a matter of human choice....
That's what I was afraid of...Then this doctrine is hardly different than the John Calvin's doctrine that people are predestined to either Heaven or Hell. In your version it's all predestination for Heaven though. Forced to love or hate God by God in Calvin's version, forced to love God by God in your version. Why weren't we all just forced in the first place? Why thousands of years of being able to rebel? All this suffering only to be given choice only to prove what? That we should have never been allowed choice? Did God make a mistake? This just gets worse the more I think about it.

I'd rather die forever than live in either world. Of course in both versions, it doesn't matter what I choose does it?

I'm so grateful that the truth is that it IS a matter of human choice. Always has been and always will be.

Last edited by 2Timothy316; 04-20-2016 at 08:33 AM..
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Old 04-20-2016, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
12,913 posts, read 4,926,084 times
Reputation: 4984
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
That's what I was afraid of...Then this doctrine is hardly different than the John Calvin's doctrine that people are predestined to either Heaven or Hell. In your version it's all predestination for Heaven though. Forced to love or hate God by God in Calvin's version, forced to love God by God in your version.

I'd rather die forever than live in either world. Of course in both versions, it doesn't matter what I choose does it?

I'm so grateful the truth is neither are true.
If X makes you feel good, then X is true.

If X makes you feel bad, then X is not true.

That's the way the real world works. Right?
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Old 04-20-2016, 08:36 AM
 
741 posts, read 271,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
If X makes you feel good, then X is true.

If X makes you feel bad, then X is not true.

That's the way the real world works. Right?
The choice to feel anything is how the world works.

For some, raping others makes them feel good. Does that make rape right? Please say no.
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Old 04-20-2016, 08:38 AM
 
4,851 posts, read 1,463,156 times
Reputation: 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
That's what I was afraid of...Then this doctrine is hardly different than the John Calvin's doctrine that people are predestined to either Heaven or Hell. In your version it's all predestination for Heaven though. Forced to love or hate God by God in Calvin's version, forced to love God by God in your version.

I'd rather die forever than live in either world. Of course in both versions, that doesn't matter does it what I choose does it?

I'm so grateful the truth is neither are true.

So let's look at it this way . You are a paranoid schizo who hears voices and thinks everyone is out to get you . You feel bad all the time , and life just sucks . In your lucid moments you understand something is not right and other people do not suffer from this and lead normal happy lives, but you cannot keep a grip very long to deal with yours. One day during an episode you end up in the ER, where the doctor informs you that they have come up with a new drug they have treated you with that completely cures your disease with one pill a day, no side effects or weird feelings from the pill. He gives you a weeks worth as a trial run , you take them as prescribed and your week is wonderful and normal. Then you have to decide whether to continue under the care of a physician and take the treatment , go back to living as a schizo without it, or just give up and commit suicide .

Given that you understand there is an option that would give you a pleasant normal life , you would choose to go back to being a schizo or commit suicide rather than be forced to " be normal" by meds and visits to a DR?
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Old 04-20-2016, 08:49 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,430,337 times
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Quote:
"God will have all humans to be saved and come into a realization of the truth. For, there is one God and one mediator of God and mankind, the Man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself a ransom for all" (see 1 Tim.2:4-6).

Therefore, whatever it is how God does it, He will.

It is not a matter of human choice but a matter of what God has done to ensure the salvation of all mankind. Since all mankind have been ransomed, all mankind must therefore be freed from sin and death and brought into God's salvation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
That's what I was afraid of...Then this doctrine is hardly different than the John Calvin's doctrine that people are predestined to either Heaven or Hell. In your version it's all predestination for Heaven though. Forced to love or hate God by God in Calvin's version, forced to love God by God in your version. Why weren't we all just forced in the first place? Why thousands of years of being able to rebel? All this suffering only to be given choice only to prove what? That we should have never been allowed choice? Did God make a mistake? This just gets worse the more I think about it.

I'd rather die forever than live in either world. Of course in both versions, it doesn't matter what I choose does it?

I'm so grateful that the truth is that it IS a matter of human choice. Always has been and always will be.
Believers were chosen by God before the disruption of the world. That was many thousands of years before you were born. Did you do something before you were born which would cause God to choose you for salvation?

The fact is that "God will have all humans to be saved." This is what He is going to do because all mankind have been ransomed. Sorry but you are too late. The ransoming has already occurred. All must be saved. All will be saved.

If you think salvation is a matter of you being the final arbiter of your salvation, then you have something to boast in but not toward God.
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Old 04-20-2016, 08:52 AM
 
741 posts, read 271,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash View Post
So let's look at it this way . You are a paranoid schizo who hears voices and thinks everyone is out to get you . You feel bad all the time , and life just sucks . In your lucid moments you understand something is not right and other people do not suffer from this and lead normal happy lives, but you cannot keep a grip very long to deal with yours. One day during an episode you end up in the ER, where the doctor informs you that they have come up with a new drug they have treated you with that completely cures your disease with one pill a day, no side effects or weird feelings from the pill. He gives you a weeks worth as a trial run , you take them as prescribed and your week is wonderful and normal. Then you have to decide whether to continue under the care of a physician and take the treatment , go back to living as a schizo without it, or just give up and commit suicide .

Given that you understand there is an option that would give you a pleasant normal life , you would choose to go back to being a schizo or commit suicide rather than be forced to " be normal" by meds and visits to a DR?
Why did God allow me to be 'schizo' in the first place? Who's fault is that?

Also would that drug not allow me to be cautious at all? Sometimes it's good to be cautious of our surroundings. It keeps us safe. I wouldn't take a drug that didn't allow me to be paranoid at all. You're still speaking of control in any case. How much a person loves. If a person has no love for God and God forces any love at all, that is a reprogramming of a person. Yes, I would rather commit suicide then my brain be altered in anyway and lose any choice. I want the option to choose to listen to God out of love. Not because I've been altered. That might be being alive, but it's not living.

"I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants,by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice, and by sticking to him, for he is your life and by him you will endure a long time in the land that Jehovah swore to give to your forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. - De 30:19, 20
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Old 04-20-2016, 08:55 AM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
12,913 posts, read 4,926,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
The choice to feel anything is how the world works.

For some, raping others makes them feel good. Does that make rape right? Please say no.
You totally missed the point of my question.
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Old 04-20-2016, 08:57 AM
 
Location: Booth Texas
13,280 posts, read 4,238,900 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
I don't believe in eternal hellfire, I have said this over and over. I do believe in eternal destruction. I also believe in choices. I choose God. I want the privilege to show Him my devotion. Not have it forced on me just so that I can live the live of programmed bag of meat. I would rather die. Because what you suggest is worse than death. Being able to love is being able to choose to love.

Do you force all your friends and family love you?

Is there really a choice? Could Joseph have had a different life? Could David?


As far as that goes, did anyone have a choice in the bible to live to be different than what they were? I don't think so, but then I don't think we are even real, just actors playing a part.


You have a good point about the bridegroom, What man or what woman wants a love that forces them to love? I think the misunderstandings about the law were supposed to be there as to whether a Gentiles should keep the laws as Jews continued keeping. I think it's a matter of choice if there is such a thing, that God wants people to willingly choose him like a bridegroom wants the bride to love and to diligently seek him, and until the person does, he doesn't never understand that the law is a wedding contract and the hidden law behind the law is a love letter to a bride.
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Old 04-20-2016, 09:11 AM
 
741 posts, read 271,216 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
You totally missed the point of my question.
The question was way too simplistic. People are more complicated than what you asked. But to answer your question with a yes or no.

No. X is not always true.
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Old 04-20-2016, 09:20 AM
 
741 posts, read 271,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius View Post
Is there really a choice? Could Joseph have had a different life? Could David?


As far as that goes, did anyone have a choice in the bible to live to be different than what they were? I don't think so, but then I don't think we are even real, just actors playing a part.


You have a good point about the bridegroom, What man or what woman wants a love that forces them to love? I think the misunderstandings about the law were supposed to be there as to whether a Gentiles should keep the laws as Jews continued keeping. I think it's a matter of choice if there is such a thing, that God wants people to willingly choose him like a bridegroom wants the bride to love and to diligently seek him, and until the person does, he doesn't never understand that the law is a wedding contract and the hidden law behind the law is a love letter to a bride.
Yes. There is a choice. Yes. Joseph could've had a different life. Yes. David too.

Why are their names in the Bible? Why are their accounts written down for us to examine? So we can imitate their faith. To know that following their God Jehovah brings rich rewards and honor for faithfulness no matter what hardship Satan or men put in front us. Even our mistakes, like in David's case can be forgiven if we return to God.

Yes, I agree. God wants us to choose Him like a Groom and Bride choose each other. That is a beautiful point btw.

What I am hearing from others is a version of a shotgun wedding or a prearranged marriage.
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