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Old 04-20-2016, 12:31 PM
 
741 posts, read 271,341 times
Reputation: 62

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Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash View Post
Really dude? You hinge your objection on the word bringing?

So, if I bring a group of people with me to a concert , or a ballgame, I somehow forced them to come with me? How do you figure that ?

You can't seem to process how people will react when the delusion of this life is lifted . You don't seem to think much of Gods ability to restore people .
Do you force people to go places with you? You're still assuming that people want to be around God. Do you assume everyone wants to be around you? Do you think God is assuming that everyone wants to be around Him? I no doubts in God's abilities. I have doubts in way you think He uses His power. I don't believe people that come to me and say, 'God uses His power this way'. Otherwise I'd believe the Calvinist. Which you are asking me to blindly follow you like they do. I wish you could see the connection between the two doctrines.
I keep asking when did this 'delusion' came on mankind and who is at fault for it? No answer yet.
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Old 04-20-2016, 12:43 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,432,516 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
"I will allow Pharʹaoh’s heart to become obstinate, and he will chase after them, and I will glorify myself by means of Pharʹaoh and all his army; and the Egyptians will certainly know that I am Jehovah.” So that is what they did." - Ex 14:4

He can direct a heart/steam that comes from a wicked source glorify Himself. He allowed Pharaoh's heart to lead him to destruction. He didn't force Pharaoh's heart to be wicked, He allowed it. God just directed Pharaoh's end.

"May Jehovah the God of our forefathers be praised, who put it into the heart of the king to beautify the house of Jehovah in Jerusalem!" - Ezra 7:27

He can also direct a stream/heart that comes from a righteous place to do good.
God doesn't command were the stream comes from or what is in the stream only where it goes. God doesn't turn a wicked person into a good person nor a good person into someone wicked.

You're using eisegesis to interpret scriptures. You have a point you want to make then go find the corresponding scriptures to support it. It should be other way around. Read the scriptures and let God's Word make it's point to you.
What is the difference between exegesis and eisegesis?
Exo 14:4 Thus I will make the heart of Pharaoh steadfast, so he will pursue after them. Then I will be glorified in Pharaoh and in all his army; and the Egyptians will know that I am Yahweh. Hence they did so.

God didn't ***allow*** Pharaoh's heart to do anything. God MADE the heart of Pharaoh steadfast so that mightly Egypt and Pharaoh's army would be destroyed.

Of course God turns wicked people into good people. Just look at Saul who became Paul who murdered Christians. In an instant, Paul was changed. God didn't hold a gun to his head. This is how it will be with the rest of mankind too.
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Old 04-20-2016, 12:46 PM
 
4,851 posts, read 1,463,863 times
Reputation: 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
Do you force people to go places with you? You're still assuming that people want to be around God. Do you assume everyone wants to be around you? Do you think God is assuming that everyone wants to be around Him? I no doubts in God's abilities. I have doubts in way you think He uses His power. I don't believe people that come to me and say, 'God uses His power this way'. Otherwise I'd believe the Calvinist. Which you are asking me to blindly follow you like they do. I wish you could see the connection between the two doctrines.
I keep asking when did this 'delusion' came on mankind and who is at fault for it? No answer yet.

Your entire argument hinges on the belief that people would choose to continue to reject God after experiencing God personally after death . You are free to believe that and of course there is certainly no way either of us can know, but you still reject the Bible in believing as you do.
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Old 04-20-2016, 12:49 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,432,516 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
I keep asking when did this 'delusion' came on mankind and who is at fault for it? No answer yet.
What delusion? That God is not sovereign in the affairs of mankind?
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Old 04-20-2016, 12:57 PM
 
741 posts, read 271,341 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash View Post
Your entire argument hinges on the belief that people would choose to continue to reject God after experiencing God personally after death . You are free to believe that and of course there is certainly no way either of us can know, but you still reject the Bible in believing as you do.
We can point fingers at each other claiming 'you reject the Bible' and the other say 'no I'm not'. Around and around we would go. You say I do I say I don't. Look at my account name. That says it all. Just because I don't accept your interpretation of the Bible doesn't mean I reject the Bible. I don't think that you reject the Bible, I think you have been mislead in interpretation as well as translation. The doctrine you are trying to get the Bible to say is not logically sound and it contradicts with much of the Bible. In fact like the Calvinist basic flaw in their doctrine, if we are all predetermined to follow God there would be no need for the Bible. Genesis 1:1 would say, "Don't worry, I got this. - God" The end. The Bible doesn't say that does it? It has so much more to say. All of it is for exactly what it says 2 Timothy 3:16 says. "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." There would be no need for a book for teaching or reproving if we were all going to be changed to what God wants anyway.
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Old 04-20-2016, 01:03 PM
 
741 posts, read 271,341 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
What delusion? That God is not sovereign in the affairs of mankind?
That's wallflashes word. He says we are all under some sort delusion. Read his posts.
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Old 04-20-2016, 01:04 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,432,516 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
We can point fingers at each other claiming 'you reject the Bible' and the other say 'no I'm not'. Around and around we would go. You say I do I say I don't. Look at my account name. That says it all. Just because I don't accept your interpretation of the Bible doesn't mean I reject the Bible. I don't think that you reject the Bible, I think you have been mislead in interpretation as well as translation. The doctrine you are trying to get the Bible to say is not logically sound and it contradicts with much of the Bible. In fact like the Calvinist basic flaw in their doctrine, if we are all predetermined to follow God there would be no need for the Bible. Genesis 1:1 would say, "Don't worry, I got this. - God" The end. The Bible doesn't say that does it? It has so much more to say. All of it is for exactly what it says 2 Timothy 3:16 says. "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." There would be no need for a book for teaching or reproving if we were all going to be changed to what God wants anyway.
Hi 2Tim316,
We can't accept that God would eternally torture or even eternally annihilate the mass of mankind for the simple reason is it would contradict too many Scriptures. Not to mention it goes against the very nature of God which is love. Funny but I didn't read "torture" in the love chapter of 1 Corinthians 13.

As to what 2 Timothy 3:16 says, I would say "All **properly translated** scripture is inspired."
I am curious what your translation has for Romans 5:18,19 and 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10,11.

Last edited by Eusebius; 04-20-2016 at 01:16 PM..
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Old 04-20-2016, 01:17 PM
 
741 posts, read 271,341 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Exo 14:4 Thus I will make the heart of Pharaoh steadfast, so he will pursue after them. Then I will be glorified in Pharaoh and in all his army; and the Egyptians will know that I am Yahweh. Hence they did so.

God didn't ***allow*** Pharaoh's heart to do anything. God MADE the heart of Pharaoh steadfast so that mightly Egypt and Pharaoh's army would be destroyed.

Of course God turns wicked people into good people. Just look at Saul who became Paul who murdered Christians. In an instant, Paul was changed. God didn't hold a gun to his head. This is how it will be with the rest of mankind too.
So God makes people wicked too? You do realize that you just agreed that God does destroy wicked people. Why did He destroy them? Why didn't He just make them good? Why was it important for Pharaoh and his army to be destroyed for so they will who God is? Again, it's Calvinism 2.0.
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Old 04-20-2016, 01:43 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,432,516 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
So God makes people wicked too? You do realize that you just agreed that God does destroy wicked people. Why did He destroy them? Why didn't He just make them good? Why was it important for Pharaoh and his army to be destroyed for so they will who God is? Again, it's Calvinism 2.0.
Currently, for the last 2,000 years, God has been at peace with the world and has not been reckoning their offenses to them (see 2 Cor.5:19).

There are vessels of indignation which God makes Himself (see Romans 9) and then there are vessels of mercy which He makes.

Someone might ask "Why then is He still blaming for who hath withstood His intention?" It is because that is what they need.

It was important for God to bring down mighty Egypt. The reason given in Romans is so that He name would be published in the entire earth.

It's not Calvinism though Calvinists might agree with me. Calvin wasn't around when Paul penned those words regarding God's sovereignty.
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Old 04-20-2016, 02:14 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,813,518 times
Reputation: 1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
What school did you attend and are you published?
What school?

The one Jesus initiated:
A) the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
The one which Jesus said:
B) Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
so anyone who comes along touting that if it wasn't for them and their organization being the answer and so happens to have insider information up till now not known before (lucky you) --- are deceived and deceiving others.

Jesus told "A" .. who in turn the Spirit made sure "A" does "B" to the present day.

  • those who taught me, also had the same promise "A" does "B"
  • and those who taught them, they too were taught who had the same promise "A" does "B"
  • and those who taught them, they too were taught having the same promise "A" does "B"
  • and those who taught them, they too were taught having the same promise "A" does "B"
  • and those who taught them, they too were taught having the same promise "A" does "B"
  • and those who taught them, they too were taught having the same promise "A" does "B"
  • and those who taught them, they too were taught having the same promise "A" does "B"
    • and so on
    • and so on
    • and so on
    • and so on ..... till we get back to Jesus who told "A" .. who in turn the Spirit made sure "A" does "B"
Thus we can trust that:
OT Hebrew scriptures were inspired\governed by the same promise "A" does "B"
and
OT Hebrew scriptures to NT Greek were inspired\governed by the same promise "A" does "B"
and
NT Greek inspired Gospels and Epistles were inspired\governed by the same promise "A" does "B"
and that pattern will be followed all the way to the present day when it comes to the Bible.
Dead Sea scrolls were inspired\governed by the same promise "A" does "B"

Septuagint were inspired\governed by the same promise "A" does "B"

KJV were inspired\governed by the same promise "A" does "B"





Last edited by twin.spin; 04-20-2016 at 02:32 PM.. Reason: spacing gremlins
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