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Old 04-22-2016, 08:22 AM
 
741 posts, read 271,341 times
Reputation: 62

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
You didn't read all of 2 Thessalonians I see. We must reject any doctrine that misleads people into doing unrighteous acts or that they are 'ok'. The doctrine of universal salvation allows for unrighteousness. Therefore according to the inspired letter from Paul, it is a misleading teaching and not from God.

I'm actually glad you brought up 2 Thessalonians. That book is the final nail in universal salvation doctrine's coffin for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
History, especially church history, does not agree with your statements above. Care to try and pull another O.J. and take another stab in the dark?
Church history is irrelevant. I don't take church history into account when reading the Bible. Again a urge you to read all of 2 Thess. Because it's clear you haven't. Or you have and don't care what it says. I on the other hand do care what it says.
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Old 04-22-2016, 08:24 AM
 
741 posts, read 271,341 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
That is a misrepresentation of what people who believe God will save all mankind according to 1 Timothy 2:4-6 believe. We believe both believers and unbelievers suffer consequences for their sins. Just look at this. It pertains to believers for whom Christ died:

1 Corinthians 11:29-32 For he who is eating and drinking unworthily is eating and drinking judgment to
himself, not discriminating the body of the Lord." (30) Therefore many among you are infirm and
ailing, and a considerable number are reposing." (31) For if we adjudicated ourselves, we would not be
judged." (32) Yet, being judged, we are being disciplined by the Lord, that we may not be condemned
with the world."

And during when Christ sets up His 1000 year reign in Israel He will judge the nations as to how they treated His brethren during their 3 1/2 years of tribulation (Matthew 25:31-46). And then, during that reign, the worst criminals who receive the death penalty will, after being executed, have their dead bodies cast into the trash dump called Gehenna.

Then, during the New Earth, there will be the second death. So how can you say we believe there are no consequences for what people do?




No, God actually tells us in 1 Timothy 4:10 and 11 to charge and teach that God is the Saviour of all mankind. If you think that leads to unrighteous conduct then God, according to you, is making us sin.
2 Thess is not about God's conduct. It's talking about our conduct. Again, I urge you to read the whole book of 2 Thessalonians. Your posts are all over the place as it is clear you have not read 2 Thessalonians. It's not what I said, it's what the Bible says. You're fighting the Bible and not me. You're going to have say that the whole 2nd letter to the Thessalonians was incorrect. Or are you indeed saying that the majority of the letter to the Thessalonians was incorrect.
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Old 04-22-2016, 09:16 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,432,516 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
That is a misrepresentation of what people who believe God will save all mankind according to 1 Timothy 2:4-6 believe. We believe both believers and unbelievers suffer consequences for their sins. Just look at this. It pertains to believers for whom Christ died:

1 Corinthians 11:29-32 For he who is eating and drinking unworthily is eating and drinking judgment to
himself, not discriminating the body of the Lord." (30) Therefore many among you are infirm and
ailing, and a considerable number are reposing." (31) For if we adjudicated ourselves, we would not be
judged." (32) Yet, being judged, we are being disciplined by the Lord, that we may not be condemned
with the world."

And during when Christ sets up His 1000 year reign in Israel He will judge the nations as to how they treated His brethren during their 3 1/2 years of tribulation (Matthew 25:31-46). And then, during that reign, the worst criminals who receive the death penalty will, after being executed, have their dead bodies cast into the trash dump called Gehenna.

Then, during the New Earth, there will be the second death. So how can you say we believe there are no consequences for what people do?




No, God actually tells us in 1 Timothy 4:10 and 11 to charge and teach that God is the Saviour of all mankind. If you think that leads to unrighteous conduct then God, according to you, is making us sin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
2 Thess is not about God's conduct. It's talking about our conduct. Again, I urge you to read the whole book of 2 Thessalonians. Your posts are all over the place as it is clear you have not read 2 Thessalonians. It's not what I said, it's what the Bible says. You're fighting the Bible and not me. You're going to have say that the whole 2nd letter to the Thessalonians was incorrect. Or are you indeed saying that the majority of the letter to the Thessalonians was incorrect.
In other words, you refuse to concentrate on what I actually wrote above. 2nd Thessalonians does not disprove 1Timothy 2:4-6 or 4:10,11. I suggest you quit trying to prove the bible contradicts itself and focus on what I wrote above in answer to your statements.
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Old 04-22-2016, 09:23 AM
 
4,851 posts, read 1,463,863 times
Reputation: 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
So suddenly God is not so powerful to have His book translated correctly? Yet powerful enough to save everyone? Hide the truth but then save everyone? What is the point in that? The answers I have been getting.....sheeesh. Seriously, your logic is just beyond reasoning. You opinions are not truth and you are lacking any credentials that you know what you are talking about. I trust that the translators of not only the NWT, but many other Bibles are correct. I have found it's not the Bible translations or their translators that are flawed so much as the readers that interpret what they want the Bible to say in any version. Since they can't get the Bible to say exactly what they want it to say, now they attack it at it's roots. It's words. People have been doing it for centuries. They can't take what the Bible says, so they change it. That is what I see in this doctrine.

Oddly enough there are those that completely ignore the parts that love is God's dominating quality as well. We see two extremes in all of this. One believes in harsh justice the other doesn't believe God enforces justice at all. All these types of doctrines are Satan's doing. Anything that leads to unrighteousness is Satan's doing. People burning forever is an unrighteous doctrine and people that love to do absolutely evil acts getting a pass to eternal life is unrighteous.

Since some Bibles contradict other Bibles, they cannot all be correct . This is simple logic.


Regarding interpretation, do you understand how the word baptism came into the English language ?
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Old 04-22-2016, 09:29 AM
 
4,851 posts, read 1,463,863 times
Reputation: 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
Church history is irrelevant. I don't take church history into account when reading the Bible. Again a urge you to read all of 2 Thess. Because it's clear you haven't. Or you have and don't care what it says. I on the other hand do care what it says.


LOL.

" I don't care what knowledgable fathers of the church who actually spoke and read the language of the Bible as their native language thought, even though they were closest to the Apostles , understood the language without the need for interpretation into another language, and knew how the words were meant to apply to doctrines of Christianity . I can make my own mind up reading a Bible by myself someone else translated for me 2000 yrs later just fine, thank you".


The Eastern Orthodox laugh at this aspect of Protestantism . It is why there are 10,000 Protestants sects that believe THEY ,of all the other 10,000 , are the ones who get it right .

Last edited by wallflash; 04-22-2016 at 09:49 AM..
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Old 04-22-2016, 10:09 AM
 
741 posts, read 271,341 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
In other words, you refuse to concentrate on what I actually wrote above. 2nd Thessalonians does not disprove 1Timothy 2:4-6 or 4:10,11. I suggest you quit trying to prove the bible contradicts itself and focus on what I wrote above in answer to your statements.
1 Timothy doesn't disprove 2 Thessalonians or visa versa. Your interpretations are the contradictions. I have no problems with any of the Bible. The question is about what is righteous and what your doctrine approves of leads to unrighteousness.

Last edited by 2Timothy316; 04-22-2016 at 10:22 AM..
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Old 04-22-2016, 10:15 AM
 
741 posts, read 271,341 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash View Post
Since some Bibles contradict other Bibles, they cannot all be correct . This is simple logic.


Regarding interpretation, do you understand how the word baptism came into the English language ?
I still feel that the majority of Bibles are not as bad as you say. I have read many different Bibles and almost all have the same message. Choice.

And yes I can google things. Though I don't see how the word baptism is relevant. However, do you understand how the Greeks used the word 'torture'? Now that is much more relevant to this discussion.

Last edited by 2Timothy316; 04-22-2016 at 10:24 AM..
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Old 04-22-2016, 10:18 AM
 
4,058 posts, read 1,454,729 times
Reputation: 272
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash View Post
Writings of the Ancient Greek fathers from the original church commenting on biblical universal reconciliation. They have been quoted in this thread .



The only writings by the original Fathers of the original congregations are published in the NT--after that darkness came in. And the original writings are all long gone.
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Old 04-22-2016, 11:17 AM
 
4,851 posts, read 1,463,863 times
Reputation: 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
I still feel that the majority of Bibles are not as bad as you say. I have read many different Bibles and almost all have the same message. Choice.

I didn't suggest the majority of Bibles are bad. Please do not put words in my mouth. I said that since there are contradictory translations and translations that many agree aren't good ones, it cannot be claimed that God is about the business of preventing bad Bible translations . I trust that most translators are honestly trying to do a good job, but Bibles are interpreted properly or not based on the knowledge and honesty of the translators , not because God is preventing any from doing a bad job.

Quote:
And yes I can google things. Though I don't see how the word baptism is relevant.
Then you don't understand how we got the word. The word in Greek simply means " immerse " , with alternate meanings of "washing by immersion". It was a simple everyday word, not a religious word . Since the KJV translators practiced sprinkling, properly translating the word as immerse was problematic for their doctrine. So instead of using the obvious English word immerse , they transliterated the Greek word baptizo into the English as baptise, and thereby created a religious term in English to avoid admitting wrong doctrine in their church .


Quote:
However, do you understand how the Greeks used the word 'torture'? Now that is much more relevant to this discussion.

Like all words it can have many shades of meaning depending upon context. You will have to clarify further .
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Old 04-22-2016, 11:19 AM
 
4,851 posts, read 1,463,863 times
Reputation: 1571
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47 View Post
The only writings by the original Fathers of the original congregations are published in the NT--after that darkness came in. And the original writings are all long gone.


Not so. This may be true for the writings that were incorporated into the Bible, but many writings from early fathers exist which show that the early church in the east ( original church) taught universal reconciliation.
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