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Old 03-22-2016, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
28,291 posts, read 15,365,260 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
Romans 5:6 explains who the many are of Matt:20:28.
Christ died for the ungodly which is everyone except Himself.
He did not die for Himself.
The rest of us are the many.

The goats will receive kolasis aionios which means age-during corrective chastisement.
Yes - Christ died for all.

His death on its own changed no one. Everyone is still in their own sin, UNTIL Christ's death is applied to their lives.
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Old 03-22-2016, 10:04 AM
 
4,214 posts, read 1,615,321 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
Jesus said few are finding it, which is the truth. Jesus also said that the future number of the Sons of God "cannot be measured or numbered" which you just numbered at 8 million. Pot kettle.



just a roundabout #-- I was being generous. Yes no man can # them.
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Old 03-22-2016, 01:11 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 12,896,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Yes - Christ died for all.

His death on its own changed no one. Everyone is still in their own sin, UNTIL Christ's death is applied to their lives.
Romans 5:18 and 19 says Christ's death and obedience will be applied to all mankind.

Now let's have a very quick look at "the many" of verse 19:

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be made just."

There is only One Person Who never sinned and that Person is Jesus Christ. Therefore Romans 5:19 is telling us ALL MANKIND minus one = "the many".

If we go to 5:18 we see all mankind:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

So why didn't Paul use "the many" in 5:18 instead of "all mankind"? Because Christ and all mankind were condemned. Christ was condemned to death on the cross and all mankind are condemned to death due to Adam's one offense. Fair is fair. If all mankind can be affected by just one thing Adam did then all mankind can and will be affected by Christ one act.
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Old 03-22-2016, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,881 posts, read 22,024,555 times
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I think it's a mistake to argue that eternal salvation is assured when the Bible specifically says that there is one sin which "shall not be forgiven... neither in this world, neither in the world to come." If the Bible is to be trusted, then we cannot merely ignore this verse. That said, I believe that God will be infinitely more merciful to His Children than most imagine and that we can reasonably expect salvation (to one degree or another) will be offered to the overwhelming majority of people who have ever lived. Those who commit the one "unforgivable sin" are going to be very few indeed.
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Old 03-22-2016, 01:30 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 12,896,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I think it's a mistake to argue that eternal salvation is assured when the Bible specifically says that there is one sin which "shall not be forgiven... neither in this world, neither in the world to come." If the Bible is to be trusted, then we cannot merely ignore this verse. That said, I believe that God will be infinitely more merciful to His Children than most imagine and that we can reasonably expect salvation (to one degree or another) will be offered to the overwhelming majority of people who have ever lived. Those who commit the one "unforgivable sin" are going to be very few indeed.

The **unpardoned** sin is said to not be pardoned only in this eon nor the eon (1000 years duration) to come.
And since we are assured God will save all mankind because Christ ransomed all mankind (1 Tim.2:4-6), and that all mankind will receive what comes out of Christ's obedience (Romans 5:18,19) we are thus assured that the one committing the unpardoned sin is to do his time for that crime. No more and no less.

Mat_12:32 whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Man
it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit,
it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending.

Mar 3:29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon,
but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin-"

And since "eonian" is that which is pertaining to the eon or eons as the case may be, we can be assured
that the eonian penalty is pertaining to "this eon and that (eon) which is impending."
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Old 03-22-2016, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
28,291 posts, read 15,365,260 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Romans 5:18 and 19 says Christ's death and obedience will be applied to all mankind.

Now let's have a very quick look at "the many" of verse 19:

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be made just."

There is only One Person Who never sinned and that Person is Jesus Christ. Therefore Romans 5:19 is telling us ALL MANKIND minus one = "the many".

If we go to 5:18 we see all mankind:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

So why didn't Paul use "the many" in 5:18 instead of "all mankind"? Because Christ and all mankind were condemned. Christ was condemned to death on the cross and all mankind are condemned to death due to Adam's one offense. Fair is fair. If all mankind can be affected by just one thing Adam did then all mankind can and will be affected by Christ one act.

There is a reason "all" is used in one case, and "many" in the other.

The Greek definition for justification has a good synonym... acquitted. Everyone's sin account has been acquitted. That's the "all".

Just because everyone's account has been expunged, does not mean that the people, in themselves, are any different. The accounts are clean... the people are still unclean and not worthy to be in His presence UNTIL Christ is joined to individuals by faith.

The death for all is absolutely necessary, for the many to come to Christ.

Your explanation in red above is not correct. Jesus is not included in the "all" or the "many".
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Old 03-22-2016, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,881 posts, read 22,024,555 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
The **unpardoned** sin is said to not be pardoned only in this eon nor the eon (1000 years duration) to come.
And since we are assured God will save all mankind because Christ ransomed all mankind (1 Tim.2:4-6), and that all mankind will receive what comes out of Christ's obedience (Romans 5:18,19) we are thus assured that the one committing the unpardoned sin is to do his time for that crime. No more and no less.

Mat_12:32 whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Man
it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit,
it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending.

Mar 3:29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon,
but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin-"

And since "eonian" is that which is pertaining to the eon or eons as the case may be, we can be assured
that the eonian penalty is pertaining to "this eon and that (eon) which is impending."
Well, I guess we are going to have to just agree to disagree on this one. You are assuming an eon to be 1000 years when, in fact, it is just an indefinite and very long period of time.
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Old 03-22-2016, 01:51 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 12,896,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
There is a reason "all" is used in one case, and "many" in the other.

The Greek definition for justification has a good synonym... acquitted. Everyone's sin account has been acquitted. That's the "all".

Just because everyone's account has been expunged, does not mean that the people, in themselves, are any different. The accounts are clean... the people are still unclean and not worthy to be in His presence UNTIL Christ is joined to individuals by faith.

The death for all is absolutely necessary, for the many to come to Christ.

Your explanation in red above is not correct. Jesus is not included in the "all" or the "many".
Of course what I stated in red is correct.

So let's just face the issue square on: You believe that all mankind were made sinners due to Adam's one act but you don't believe all mankind will be made righteous due to Christ's one act. Therefore you believe the first Adam was greater than the second Adam.

And you are disobedient to what God tells us in 1 Timothy 4:10,11 when He tells us to charge and teach that not only will God save all mankind in 1 Timothy 2:4-6 because Christ ransomed all mankind, you refuse to charge and teach God is all mankind's Saviour. A Saviour is one who saves, not one who just offers salvation.

You are using unbiblical statements such as "everyone's account has been expunged." The Bible doesn't state that.

And justification does not mean "acquitted". It means "set right." When text is justified in printing it is set to the right so it is straight on the right hand margin. All mankind will be set right. The jaggedness of their lives will be set right.

Once all mankind are made righteous and justified they will no longer be unclean nor will they be unworthy.
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Old 03-22-2016, 01:53 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 12,896,787 times
Reputation: 990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Well, I guess we are going to have to just agree to disagree on this one. You are assuming an eon to be 1000 years when, in fact, it is just an indefinite and very long period of time.
We know the first two eons have already ended, so they can't be eternal. The current wicked eon is still going on and is indefinite as to its duration. But we know it must end and be replaced by the coming millennial reign of Christ which happens to be 1000 years, so it can't be eternal. The final eon, which comes when the millennial reign ends and a new earth comes is of indefinite duration. But we know it too will end since the Bible tells us all the eons end, so it can't be eternal.
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Old 03-22-2016, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,881 posts, read 22,024,555 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
We know the first two eons have already ended, so they can't be eternal.
I didn't say it was eternal, did I?

Quote:
The current wicked eon is still going on and is indefinite as to its duration. But we know it must end and be replaced by the coming millennial reign of Christ which happens to be 1000 years, so it can't be eternal. The final eon, which comes when the millennial reign ends and a new earth comes is of indefinite duration. But we know it too will end since the Bible tells us all the eons end, so it can't be eternal.
You keep telling me that it's not eternal. Again, I never said it was. Regardless of how long it may be, though, the Bible still says that forgiveness will not come to blasphemers of the Holy Spirit during it.
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