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Old 04-26-2016, 12:57 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,430,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Of course, universal salvation is assured because WE have nothing to do with it. Jesus did what was needed. Why is this so hard to understand? It is the Churches that have added things that WE must do to be saved including being a member of their Church and believing what they do! How is that having faith in Jesus that He did what He said He did????
Excellent points Mystic
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Old 04-26-2016, 02:45 PM
 
1,286 posts, read 2,166,932 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Of course, universal salvation is assured because WE have nothing to do with it. Jesus did what was needed. Why is this so hard to understand? ....snipped
So close, but yet, so far away. You are leading people to believe that Christ went to the cross because he just couldn't handle the idea of eternity without them. The Gospel is not "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life". The Gospel is God centered, Christ centered, cross centered, and grace centered...not man centered. Romans 9 makes it very clear. Why is that so hard to understand? "Vengeance is mine, I shall repay, says the Lord" Romans 12 and Hebrews 10 shoots down universalism quite clearly.
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Old 04-26-2016, 03:18 PM
 
741 posts, read 271,105 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electron View Post
So close, but yet, so far away. You are leading people to believe that Christ went to the cross because he just couldn't handle the idea of eternity without them. The Gospel is not "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life". The Gospel is God centered, Christ centered, cross centered, and grace centered...not man centered. Romans 9 makes it very clear. Why is that so hard to understand? "Vengeance is mine, I shall repay, says the Lord" Romans 12 and Hebrews 10 shoots down universalism quite clearly.
While I don't agree with universal salvation, I can't exactly agree with this statement either. God has wrapped up the salvation of mankind with His loyal love. The fact that He said he would save mankind and establish His kingdom together means that one will not come without the other. And God does have a wonderful plan, it's just that I don't agree with universal salvationist that God doesn't give people a choice to choose Him. The good news will not be shoved down our throats nor will people be reprogrammed to love God. Just as I don't think people are pre-programmed to hate God either. I think we have the choice to do either one.
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Old 04-26-2016, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,265 posts, read 20,872,370 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
The good news will not be shoved down our throats nor will people be reprogrammed to love God. Just as I don't think people are pre-programmed to hate God either. I think we have the choice to do either one.
Well, what do you know? You and I have found something we can agree upon.
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Old 04-26-2016, 05:03 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,430,337 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
While I don't agree with universal salvation, I can't exactly agree with this statement either. God has wrapped up the salvation of mankind with His loyal love. The fact that He said he would save mankind and establish His kingdom together means that one will not come without the other. And God does have a wonderful plan, it's just that I don't agree with universal salvationist that God doesn't give people a choice to choose Him. The good news will not be shoved down our throats nor will people be reprogrammed to love God. Just as I don't think people are pre-programmed to hate God either. I think we have the choice to do either one.
Hebrews 10 does not make God a liar when He said "God will have all mankind to be saved because Christ gave Himself a ransom for all." (see 1 Timothy 2:4-6).

Hebrews 10 does not say if the Israelite believer falls away that *eternal torment* awaits such a one.
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Old 04-26-2016, 05:04 PM
 
1,472 posts, read 1,014,494 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
While I don't agree with universal salvation, I can't exactly agree with this statement either. God has wrapped up the salvation of mankind with His loyal love. The fact that He said he would save mankind and establish His kingdom together means that one will not come without the other. And God does have a wonderful plan, it's just that I don't agree with universal salvationist that God doesn't give people a choice to choose Him. The good news will not be shoved down our throats nor will people be reprogrammed to love God. Just as I don't think people are pre-programmed to hate God either. I think we have the choice to do either one.
I think you may be missing the Universal Reconciliationist's point when it comes to what God does and doesn't allow people to choose. While I'm sure there disagreement about this in the UR camp, most URs I know believe God allows people to make their own choice in their own time and order but knows that eventually all will choose him at some point in the ages but in their time away from him they will go through their own "refining" that will allow them to see why God is worth pursuing. Honestly, if you compare this idea to other more popular ideas such as people 'consciously' (knowing full well that they are doing it) choosing eternal death/nothingness, eternal tormenting isolation, or even eternal torture and then either never being able to get out of these states or consciously choosing to stay in them for all eternity, the more popular ideas sound much more robotic in terms of "choice" than UR. Its like the old CS Lewis idea of people in hell taking a bus ride to heaven and none of them wanting to go there over hell after seeing it...yeah sounds pretty robotic to me.
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Old 04-26-2016, 08:13 PM
 
37,496 posts, read 25,232,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Of course, universal salvation is assured because WE have nothing to do with it. Jesus did what was needed. Why is this so hard to understand? It is the Churches that have added things that WE must do to be saved including being a member of their Church and believing what they do! How is that having faith in Jesus that He did what He said He did????
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electron View Post
So close, but yet, so far away. You are leading people to believe that Christ went to the cross because he just couldn't handle the idea of eternity without them. The Gospel is not "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life". The Gospel is God centered, Christ centered, cross centered, and grace centered...not man centered. Romans 9 makes it very clear. Why is that so hard to understand? "Vengeance is mine, I shall repay, says the Lord" Romans 12 and Hebrews 10 shoots down universalism quite clearly.
Jesus went to the cross because our ignorant, barbaric ancestors demanded it. His achievement was to do what none of us could do - express pure agape love EVEN during horrendous scourging and crucifixion. He even loved His torturers and murderers because they knew not what they did. He smote no one and said that when we see Him we see the Father so HOW can you maintain your love of vengeance and absurd belief in eternal Hell???? He said God IS agape love and He unambiguously demonstrated it, so I believe His ACTIONS over your reading of man's interpretations.
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Old 04-27-2016, 04:27 AM
 
1,286 posts, read 2,166,932 times
Reputation: 670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Hebrews 10 does not make God a liar when He said "God will have all mankind to be saved because Christ gave Himself a ransom for all." (see 1 Timothy 2:4-6).
1Timothy 2:4-6 says nothing of the sort. While God may in fact desire that ALL be saved, he does not simply will it to happen.
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Old 04-27-2016, 04:31 AM
 
2,728 posts, read 848,226 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Funny, that's exactly what the Jews said about the New Testament.
Nice!
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Old 04-27-2016, 05:38 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,475 posts, read 31,872,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
The good news will not be shoved down our throats nor will people be reprogrammed to love God. Just as I don't think people are pre-programmed to hate God either. I think we have the choice to do either one.
Yes, some accept the invitation, while many reject it. Jesus was very clear about salvation, and explained people are saved through faith. It is repeated some 200 times in the Bible, so it is rich some people argue otherwise.

The parable of the wedding feast explains how many people flat out reject the free gift of salvation.

“The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and sent his servants[a] to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”’ But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

“But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.”
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