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Old 03-22-2016, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,198 posts, read 14,090,937 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Of course what I stated in red is correct.

So let's just face the issue square on: You believe that all mankind were made sinners due to Adam's one act but you don't believe all mankind will be made righteous due to Christ's one act. Therefore you believe the first Adam was greater than the second Adam.

And you are disobedient to what God tells us in 1 Timothy 4:10,11 when He tells us to charge and teach that not only will God save all mankind in 1 Timothy 2:4-6 because Christ ransomed all mankind, you refuse to charge and teach God is all mankind's Saviour. A Saviour is one who saves, not one who just offers salvation.

You are using unbiblical statements such as "everyone's account has been expunged." The Bible doesn't state that.

And justification does not mean "acquitted". It means "set right." When text is justified in printing it is set to the right so it is straight on the right hand margin. All mankind will be set right. The jaggedness of their lives will be set right.

Once all mankind are made righteous and justified they will no longer be unclean nor will they be unworthy.

Wait - Did you just link justification of text in a computer file to justification of life? Wow. And you are citing me for statements not in the Bible...

Greek work is dikaiosis... the root word is dikaioo which means to render as just and innocent. Feel free to look it up.

The red above is obviously false. We are all physically linked to Adam. That's why we are all sinners (except Christ). That's why we all incur the penalties set forth in Genesis 3. Adam is not greater than Christ.

We are also born spiritually disconnected from Christ (Ephesians 2:1). On our own, we are unable to link ourselves to Christ (Romans 3:9). Christ's death clears everyone's account of sin (Romans 5:18). Christ's life, and our faith in His resurrection, is what unites our life to His life (Romans 6:6).

None of the verses in 1 Timothy imply salvation for every person. There are plenty of clear verses that display the contrary - from Matthew 25, to Revelation 20.

It's been discussed ad nauseum. We will not agree... and we don't have to.

Just give God room to do what He will do. I have no problem if I am wrong here. God is still God. Jesus is still Lord. Can you say the same?
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Old 03-22-2016, 02:58 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,147 posts, read 2,741,679 times
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THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN
Instead of being forgiven, the sinner will suffer the consequences.
But the consequenses are eonian, not eternal.

I found this link helpful.
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/H...blasphemy.html

The correct literal translation:
Mk 3: 28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the
sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies,
whatsoever they should be blaspheming, 29 yet whoever should be
blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon,
but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin -
(Concordant Literal Translation)
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Old 03-22-2016, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,260 posts, read 20,865,688 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN
Instead of being forgiven, the sinner will suffer the consequences.
But the consequenses are eonian, not eternal.

I found this link helpful.
biblical studies: The Blasphemy of the Spirit

The correct literal translation:
Mk 3: 28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the
sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies,
whatsoever they should be blaspheming, 29 yet whoever should be
blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon,
but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin -
(Concordant Literal Translation)
So what do you believe the consequences to be?
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Old 03-22-2016, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,147 posts, read 2,741,679 times
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Post consequences

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
So what do you believe the consequences to be?
Kat, whatever the consequences will be they will be perceived by all to be just and fair.
The end result will be kolasis aionios which means age-during corrective chastisement.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."

See what other Greek scholars say about it too.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
Chapter Eleven

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).

Regarding the meaning of aionios, many Greek scholars agree with John Wesley Hanson.
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
AIN -- AINIOS

Dean Hough wrote “The definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, “In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . .” (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ.
The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ’s cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28).”
Dean Hough
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Old 03-24-2016, 05:19 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,427,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I didn't say it was eternal, did I?

You keep telling me that it's not eternal. Again, I never said it was. Regardless of how long it may be, though, the Bible still says that forgiveness will not come to blasphemers of the Holy Spirit during it.
They won't be pardoned in this eon or in that eon which is impending. Just like in our judicial system, if a person commits a crime and is not pardoned by the president, they must serve their time for their crime. It doesn't mean they are eternally kept in prison if not pardoned.

Likewise, if Jesus does not pardon a person for blaspheming the holy spirit, they must remain outside the scope of kingdom blessing until they have fulfilled their sentence. This does prove God can and will save all mankind . . . eventually.
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Old 03-24-2016, 05:31 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,427,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Wait - Did you just link justification of text in a computer file to justification of life? Wow. And you are citing me for statements not in the Bible...

Greek work is dikaiosis... the root word is dikaioo which means to render as just and innocent. Feel free to look it up.

The red above is obviously false. We are all physically linked to Adam. That's why we are all sinners (except Christ). That's why we all incur the penalties set forth in Genesis 3. Adam is not greater than Christ.
Christ is the Firstborn of EVERY creature (Col.1:15,16 etc.). Therefore He has a direct connection with all mankind. The responsibility of the firstborn in Israelitish culture is that they have a responsibility to be the kinsman redeemer of all they are directly related to as in the case of Ruth and Boaz and others in the Bible. And the interesting thing is that right after Paul reveals that Christ is the Firstborn of all creation is that fact that God is going to reconcile ALL in the heavens and earth to Him making peace through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20) thus proving His Kinsman Redeemership.

Quote:
We are also born spiritually disconnected from Christ (Ephesians 2:1). On our own, we are unable to link ourselves to Christ (Romans 3:9). Christ's death clears everyone's account of sin (Romans 5:18). Christ's life, and our faith in His resurrection, is what unites our life to His life (Romans 6:6).
We are already linked to Christ whether we know it or not. And we are justified by Christ's faith (Gal.2:16).

Quote:
None of the verses in 1 Timothy imply salvation for every person. There are plenty of clear verses that display the contrary - from Matthew 25, to Revelation 20.
Matthew 25 is only dealing with how the nations treated Christ's brethren and is pertaining to the millennial eon. Revelation 20 is just dealing with death as it regards the lake of fire. Paul saw beyond John's Revelation when he saw death abolished and God All in all (1 Cor.15:22-28).
1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10,11 tell us God will save ALL MANKIND because it says Christ ransomed all mankind.

Quote:
It's been discussed ad nauseum. We will not agree... and we don't have to.

Just give God room to do what He will do. I have no problem if I am wrong here. God is still God. Jesus is still Lord. Can you say the same?
If you don't believe God is going to save all mankind then you will go to hell forever.
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Old 03-24-2016, 06:17 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,147 posts, read 2,741,679 times
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Post eonian chastisment & eonian life both come to an end

Up until the time of Augustine, most Christians believed in universal salvation.
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness.
But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott

Note God’s wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive

GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be “the god of this eon” (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!

QUOTES FROM CHURCH FATHERS
The Church Fathers on Universalism

Tracing Universalist Thought Through Church History
Tracing Universalist Thought Through Church History
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Old 03-24-2016, 01:35 PM
 
4,053 posts, read 1,452,829 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
Up until the time of Augustine, most Christians believed in universal salvation.
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness.
But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott

Note God’s wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive

GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be “the god of this eon” (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!

QUOTES FROM CHURCH FATHERS
The Church Fathers on Universalism

Tracing Universalist Thought Through Church History
Tracing Universalist Thought Through Church History





The religion Jesus started--died along with the followers that were hunted down, then thrown to hungry wild animals as a public display( some may have went underground at that point)--the great apostasy arose( 2Thess 2:3)-- they had to hold councils because they did not know truth--as well the greeks were refusing to join a religion with a single being God( The God of Israel)--thus a trinity was created at those councils--as well the greeks wanted their celebrations as well--so the pagan additives from those celebrations were brought into Christmas and Easter.
Not until these last days, did truth come back.( Dan 12:4)
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Old 03-24-2016, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,147 posts, read 2,741,679 times
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THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment
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Old 03-24-2016, 02:29 PM
 
4,564 posts, read 2,265,910 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT
For one thing KJV translated the word Gehenna into English as hellfire.
Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed and Not kept burning.
So, there is No endless punishment but simply: destruction ( non-life )
Eternal punishment is annihilation because the wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalms 92:7
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