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Old 05-03-2016, 05:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
He chose to strike him blind instead of using a sword. Saul/Paul was chosen for a very special mission, and his story is unique. Let us not pretend it is common for Jesus to strike people blind in order to force them to convert. We all know that is not how it works.

If you want the strongest proof that God certainly does NOT respect man's free will look no further than the story of Paul, a total and complete apostate who wanted nothing to do with Christianity and Jesus Christ except to kill Christians. Instead, God totally overruled Paul free will and literally forced him to become his apostle according to the story.


if Jesus/God does it for Paul then why doesn't He overrule ALL our free wills and make us Christians if Christianity is the true religion? Actually, Paul having his free will overruled and the rest of us NOT having our free will overruled---I mean this silly idea that God only wants us to come to Him of our own free will and if we don't want to He doesn't force us--is a totally bogus conjecture and proves that the story of Paul is nothing more than a myth constructed by early Christians.
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Old 05-03-2016, 05:13 PM
 
Location: USA
3,059 posts, read 1,061,108 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Where does it state that Christ struck Paul blind?
Acts 9:
[9] And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.


The blindness was not permanent. Loss or diminished vision is a symptom severe dehydration. It can cause permanent brain damage however, with lasting effects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
The point is that Paul didn't want to be saved. He wanted nothing to do with Christ. That God had other plans for Paul's life is beside the point. Paul didn't know that until Christ intervened. Tired of the Nonsense said he doesn't want to be saved. Too bad. Christ already died for his sins and ransomed him. It's a little too late to complain now.
You probably do not currently want to convert to Sufism (as an example) either. But if you underwent a dire life threatening experience and became convinced as a result of that experience that God wanted you to convert to Sufism, you just might convert to Sufism.
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Old 05-03-2016, 05:46 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,449,437 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
There is no contradiction. The problem is that you do not understand the verses, and the faulty understanding creates contradictions with the rest of the Bible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
If you want the strongest proof that God certainly does NOT respect man's free will look no further than the story of Paul, a total and complete apostate who wanted nothing to do with Christianity and Jesus Christ except to kill Christians. Instead, God totally overruled Paul free will and literally forced him to become his apostle according to the story.


if Jesus/God does it for Paul then why doesn't He overrule ALL our free wills and make us Christians if Christianity is the true religion? Actually, Paul having his free will overruled and the rest of us NOT having our free will overruled---I mean this silly idea that God only wants us to come to Him of our own free will and if we don't want to He doesn't force us--is a totally bogus conjecture and proves that the story of Paul is nothing more than a myth constructed by early Christians.
The Biblical point though is that God has not been trying to save all mankind for age-during life to come. He has selected specific individuals before the disruption of the world who will be in the ecclesia/church. So of course He is going to overwhelm us with faith and love and grace as He did Paul to where we see the truth that Christ did die for our sins.

Therefore the Paul's conversion proves it is accurate that it is God Who saves and not man who saves himself. At the conclusion of the ages the rest of mankind are saved.
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Old 05-03-2016, 05:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
Acts 9:
[9] And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.


The blindness was not permanent. Loss or diminished vision is a symptom severe dehydration. It can cause permanent brain damage however, with lasting effects.
Christ's glory was above that of the noon day sun. That is what blinded Paul. Paul was healed of his blindness by Ananias:

Act 9:17-19 Now Ananias came away and entered the house, and placing his hands on him, he said, "Saul! Brother! The Lord has commissioned me (Jesus, Who was seen by you on the road by which you came), so that you should be receiving sight and be filled with holy spirit." (18) And immediately fall from his eyes as if scales, and he receives sight. Besides, rising, also, he is baptized, (19) and obtaining nourishment, is strengthened. Now he came to be with the disciples in Damascus some days."

And it was only after Paul was healed that he obtained nourishment.

I doubt you could write as deeply as Paul did in all his epistles. And the 12 concurred that Paul was an apostle. If he was brain damaged, I doubt he would have made the cut.




Quote:
You probably do not currently want to convert to Sufism (as an example) either. But if you underwent a dire life threatening experience and became convinced as a result of that experience that God wanted you to convert to Sufism, you just might convert to Sufism.
Well of course if God wanted a person to convert to Sufism he would do so.
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Old 05-03-2016, 05:56 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,449,437 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Let's repeat shall we: Let us not pretend it is common for Jesus to strike people blind in order to force them to convert. We all know that is not how it works.
Let's not pretend either that Christ struck Paul blind. The Scriptures don't say He did. Paul was blinded by Christ's glory above that of the noon day sun.

But Paul is a pattern for all those of the nations who are about to be believing:

1Ti 1:14-16 Yet the grace of our Lord overwhelms, with faith and love in Christ Jesus." (15) Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all welcome, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, foremost of whom am I." (16) But therefore was I shown mercy, that in me, the foremost, Jesus Christ should be displaying all His patience, for a pattern of those who are about to be believing on Him for life eonian."
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Old 05-03-2016, 06:21 PM
 
Location: USA
3,059 posts, read 1,061,108 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Christ's glory was above that of the noon day sun. That is what blinded Paul. Paul was healed of his blindness by Ananias:
That's a fine declaration of faith and all. But you have yet to answer the question I've posed. Which is the more LIKELY, that Paul, in a state of extreme dehydration and while being treated and prayed over by a Christian man, hallucinated meeting Jesus, or that Paul actually had a face to face meeting with a man who had been dead for several years? Be honest, now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
And it was only after Paul was healed that he obtained nourishment.
Paul went three days without drinking. He needed an IV. But yes, Paul recovered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
I doubt you could write as deeply as Paul did in all his epistles. And the 12 concurred that Paul was an apostle. If he was brain damaged, I doubt he would have made the cut.
2Cor.12
[7] And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.


In his own words, Paul seems to have had some sort of an affliction that persisted throughout his life.

It didn't hurt that Paul contributed money to the church that he got from the Gentiles either.
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Old 05-03-2016, 06:56 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,449,437 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
That's a fine declaration of faith and all. But you have yet to answer the question I've posed. Which is the more LIKELY, that Paul, in a state of extreme dehydration and while being treated and prayed over by a Christian man, hallucinated meeting Jesus, or that Paul actually had a face to face meeting with a man who had been dead for several years? Be honest, now.
In all honesty, Paul met the risen Christ and was blinded by his glory and was healed of his blindness by Ananias.



Quote:
Paul went three days without drinking. He needed an IV. But yes, Paul recovered.
You don't know that. That is just your say-so. It could have occurred in Winter when it was cold outside.


Quote:
2Cor.12
[7] And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.


In his own words, Paul seems to have had some sort of an affliction that persisted throughout his life.

It didn't hurt that Paul contributed money to the church that he got from the Gentiles either.
Whatever it was, it was not due to dehydration but rather Satan giving him a thorn in the flesh long after his conversion. Paul didn't get a church from the Gentiles but started the Gentile churches and he took up money for the poor.
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Old 05-03-2016, 06:56 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,547 posts, read 31,944,414 times
Reputation: 9419
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
If you want the strongest proof that God certainly does NOT respect man's free will look no further than the story of Paul, a total and complete apostate who wanted nothing to do with Christianity and Jesus Christ except to kill Christians. Instead, God totally overruled Paul free will and literally forced him to become his apostle according to the story.
Let's not pretend it is common for Jesus to strike people blind in order to force them to convert. We all know that is not how it works. But then again, I already said so. I also explained God had chosen Paul for a very special mission. Millions have gone to their graves rejecting God, even cursing Him, and these people were never struck blind and forced to convert.
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Old 05-03-2016, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,280 posts, read 20,922,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
Well, this IS where one would reasonably expect to find Christians. Is it not? Where do Christians missionaries go to find non Christians? They go to the places were non Christians tend to congregate.
I'm just saying that if you are convinced Christianity is nonsense, and are sick of it, you must just be a glutton for punishment.

Quote:
How does one go about confronting nonsense? That would be by exposing it for the nonsense that it is.
And how's that working out for you? How many Christians have you convinced to give up their faith by "exposing it for the nonsense that it is"?

Quote:
Have you ever noticed how Christian claims invariably fall entirely apart when exposed to actual examination? There is a reason for that.
Nobody has ever been able to actually disprove anything I believe, but I'll be sure to let you know when that happens. I have noticed, though, that atheists are very quick to declare that something which cannot be proven is "nonsense." Personally, I'm more about live and let live. That's why I don't hang out on the atheism forum trying to convert people to my belief system. Consequently, I have a pretty good relationship with most of the atheists on the forum.

Last edited by Katzpur; 05-03-2016 at 08:31 PM..
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Old 05-03-2016, 08:28 PM
 
Location: USA
3,059 posts, read 1,061,108 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
In all honesty, Paul met the risen Christ and was blinded by his glory and was healed of his blindness by Anania.
This sort of obvious self deception is why believers are so often derided by non believers. There is no real chance that Paul met with and talked with the years dead Jesus. You can declare it to be true. You can even conspire to believe it yourself. But there is nothing you can do to make such a claim obviously true. It's a ridiculous and obviously unrealistic claim on the face of it, and there is nothing you can do to change that fact.

Typically, if the dehydration does not kill you, you do recover from it. There can be lasting effects though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense
Paul went three days without drinking. He needed an IV. But yes, Paul recovered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
You don't know that. That is just your say-so. It could have occurred in Winter when it was cold outside.
This is what it says in all three of my Bibles, as well as the online Bible. What does it say in your Bible? And I notice that people need water in the winter as well. Three days without water is a extremely life threatening situation.

Acts 9:
[9] And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.


Bible, King James Version


Written by Administrator
US Army Survival Manual

In any extreme situation you cannot survive for more than:

3 minutes without air - 3 hours without shelter
3 days without water - 3 weeks without food.
Home INFORMATION

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Whatever it was, it was not due to dehydration but rather Satan giving him a thorn in the flesh long after his conversion. Paul didn't get a church from the Gentiles but started the Gentile churches and he took up money for the poor.
No one said anything about Paul getting a church FROM the Gentiles. He collected money from the Gentiles and gave it to "the saints" in Jerusalem.

1Cor.16
[1] Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
[2] Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
[3] And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
[4] And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.

Rom.15
[25] But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
[26] For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
[27] It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

Acts 24
[17] Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation, and offerings.
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