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Old 05-06-2016, 01:21 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,427,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
God created Satan with full foreknowledge of what Satan would be and what Satan would do. God, being omnipotent, got exactly the result He intended to get when He created Satan. Give Satan all of the free will he wants, Satan will never do one thing more, or less then God fully knew and intended that he would do when God created him in the first place. Satan is therefore merely God's alter ego; God's evil mask, and Satan is carrying out God's will as God always intended, since nothing else is possible.
Satan cannot undo the fact that "God will have all mankind to be saved because Christ ransomed all" (1 Tim.2:4-6). And in verse 5 it says "for there is one God." Satan is not strong enough to countermand God's goal for all mankind.
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Old 05-06-2016, 02:03 PM
 
9,985 posts, read 6,381,372 times
Reputation: 5593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Satan cannot undo the fact that "God will have all mankind to be saved because Christ ransomed all" (1 Tim.2:4-6). And in verse 5 it says "for there is one God." Satan is not strong enough to countermand God's goal for all mankind.
You don't understand, are are citing a verse improperly.
The Word of God does not say "Christ ransomed all".
It says that He gave Himself AS A RANSOM FOR ALL.

There is a difference. A HUGE difference that you need to
understand if you want to be a Christian of sound doctrine.
Namely, that Christ's eternal sacrifice made it POSSIBLE for
us to be saved, but NOT automatic for all.
God wants all to be saved, but there will be or could be some whom
are NOT SAVED and that of course includes angels, I feel I must say
this because I recall one of your posts, or some other Universalist's
posts that even Satan and his demons and the nephilim will be saved.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
5 for one [is] God, one also [is] mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:
6 Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times.

Darby Translation
4 who desires that all men should be saved and come to [the] knowledge of [the] truth.
5 For God is one, and [the] mediator of God and men one, [the] man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony [to be rendered] in its own times;

King James Version
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

New American Bible
4 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.c
5 For there is one God.
There is also one mediator between God and the human race,
Christ Jesus, himself human,d
6 who gave himself as ransom for all.
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Old 05-06-2016, 05:40 PM
 
Location: USA
3,012 posts, read 1,046,912 times
Reputation: 870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7 View Post
No, first of all, you meant to say "omniscient", not "omnipotent".
It is and was the Divine Will of the Father to create men, and angels,
possessing Free Will. Satan exercised its own free will to rebel against God,
and so did man. In your own free will, love God who created you, and do
not complain of what you cannot judge.
While I concede that I am perfectly capable of making just such an error, that is not the case here. I referred to God's omniscience as "foreknowledge." When I said that "God, being omnipotent, got exactly the result He intended to get when He created Satan," that is exactly what I meant. If God did not get exactly the result He intended to get then God FAILED to achieve His intentions. Would you care to go on record as declaring that God fails? If God did not know that Satan and man would use their free will to "rebel" against God as Satan and man were being created, then God is not omniscient. And if knowing that, God went ahead and created them just as they were, then God must have intended for the "rebellion" to occur. OR did God FAIL to achieve His intention?
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Old 05-06-2016, 05:54 PM
 
Location: USA
3,012 posts, read 1,046,912 times
Reputation: 870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Satan cannot undo the fact that "God will have all mankind to be saved because Christ ransomed all" (1 Tim.2:4-6). And in verse 5 it says "for there is one God." Satan is not strong enough to countermand God's goal for all mankind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
Satan cannot undo the fact that "God will have all mankind to be saved because Christ ransomed all" (1 Tim.2:4-6). And in verse 5 it says "for there is one God." Satan is not strong enough to countermand God's goal for all mankind.
Satan must certainly know this as well. All Satan need do is simply to quit and refuse to participate. Which would serve to prove God wrong. And that would undo creation. Instead however Satan soldiers on in the role he was specifically created to undertake. On to his certain fate like the good soldier he is. Jesus suffered for a day. Satan is fated to suffer for eternity. Satan is many times in scale more of a sacrificial lamb then Jesus ever was.
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Old 05-06-2016, 06:06 PM
 
9,985 posts, read 6,381,372 times
Reputation: 5593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
While I concede that I am perfectly capable of making just such an error, that is not the case here. I referred to God's omniscience as "foreknowledge." When I said that "God, being omnipotent, got exactly the result He intended to get when He created Satan," that is exactly what I meant. If God did not get exactly the result He intended to get then God FAILED to achieve His intentions. Would you care to go on record as declaring that God fails? If God did not know that Satan and man would use their free will to "rebel" against God as Satan and man were being created, then God is not omniscient. And if knowing that, God went ahead and created them just as they were, then God must have intended for the "rebellion" to occur. OR did God FAIL to achieve His intention?
The knowledge of God, his omniscience, is beyond description
and certainly beyond our mortal ability to comprehend.
Still, omniscience is only one characteristic of the Godhead,
and all divine attributes are subject to the Divine Will, including
omniscience.
This means the free will of God's creatures, including angels and men
is a gift bestowed by God in His wisdom and grace which may supercede
His optional omniscience in all matters. After all, God also has free will.
He doesn't have to fore-know what he doesn't want to fore-know.
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Old 05-06-2016, 06:39 PM
 
17,689 posts, read 8,866,529 times
Reputation: 1485
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7 View Post
God wants all to be saved, but there will be or could be some whom
are NOT SAVED and that of course includes angels, I feel I must say
this because I recall one of your posts, or some other Universalist's
posts that even Satan and his demons and the nephilim will be saved.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
5 for one [is] God, one also [is] mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:
6 Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times.

Darby Translation
4 who desires that all men should be saved and come to [the] knowledge of [the] truth.
5 For God is one, and [the] mediator of God and men one, [the] man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony [to be rendered] in its own times;

King James Version
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

New American Bible
4 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.c
5 For there is one God.
There is also one mediator between God and the human race,
Christ Jesus, himself human,d
6 who gave himself as ransom for all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
1 Timothy 2:4
... who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of [the] truth.

It's an active, ongoing result of a previous action.

And in the ongoing result of that action; desires (wants, wills) all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. The action is indicative. Nowhere is it subjunctive, or that of being contingent or probable, nor imperative on the subjects response. Neither is it Optative, as in being unlikely or wishful thinking that men might come to this salvation and knowledge.

You should investigate that which will be destroyed; it's not the man himself.
Iím afraid I have some bad news: You have a terminal case of cranial-rectosis inversion.
In other words, you are letting the darkness, overrule your ability to think and reason.

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Old 05-06-2016, 07:58 PM
 
Location: USA
3,012 posts, read 1,046,912 times
Reputation: 870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7 View Post
The knowledge of God, his omniscience, is beyond description
and certainly beyond our mortal ability to comprehend.
Still, omniscience is only one characteristic of the Godhead,
and all divine attributes are subject to the Divine Will, including
omniscience.
This means the free will of God's creatures, including angels and men
is a gift bestowed by God in His wisdom and grace which may supercede
His optional omniscience in all matters. After all, God also has free will.
He doesn't have to fore-know what he doesn't want to fore-know.
How does God choose not to fore know something? He would have to fore know it first. Besides, God's foreknowledge that something will occur would not obviate the free will it took to get to that point. Do you even notice the pretzel logic required to sustain your contradictory belief system?
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Old 05-07-2016, 03:59 AM
 
34,461 posts, read 8,876,928 times
Reputation: 4784
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
How does God choose not to fore know something? He would have to fore know it first. Besides, God's foreknowledge that something will occur would not obviate the free will it took to get to that point. Do you even notice the pretzel logic required to sustain your contradictory belief system?
I can't rep you right now but your reasoning is excellent. God (In Biblical theology at least) cannot be other than all -knowing. Not only about what is, but what will be, or there is no reliable Plan (1). That certainly makes more sense, but it is not the theology. Thus He knew everything. Lucifer, unless God is Keeping Things from his angels, knew that he had no hope of winning, only off God allowed him to. "soldiers on" ae you say.

The Job story would never have worked as God would simply know how it would turn out before the experiment was even done. For that matter, The Flood was not necessary - God would simply have started with Noah, not Adam. Not that Noah was much better.

Now, I know what the answer will be - God knows what he is doing, even if we don't. If so, if he is not struggling to make his plan work, then every bit of it is planned and executed by Him, and nobody but him is responsible, even if nobody it Big enough to make him accept it.

At the very least he ought to feel that nobody else is really to blame for His Plan, and thus no -one of for the furnaces. So no job for Satan. Just as well, because he is not to blame, either.

So indeed, Universal salvation is assured. And that is a cozy thought. I don't worry about death, at least as regards the sequel. I don't alive there is a next life. And if there is, it is one we all get, naturally. And it seems that, even if it one created by Biblegod, we all get that one as well, eventually. Whether we were believers or not.

(1) the staggering idea of his choosing not to know certain things beggars belief. What sort of Plan could only work if the planner blanked out half the information from his knowledge? It wouldn't do a damn' thing to get him of the hook of responsibility, so what point would there be in it? God would be constantly faced with the realization that, despite being Omniscient, there were a lot of things he didn't know, so he must have blanked out some of his knowledge in the past. Realizing that, the only way he could could make sense of the Pig's ear he was making of it and didn't himself know why, muttering "I know what I'm doing" would have the angels rolling their eyes behind his back.

Snowball, you are going to have to go back to the drawing -board on that one.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 05-07-2016 at 04:15 AM..
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Old 05-07-2016, 10:44 AM
 
9,985 posts, read 6,381,372 times
Reputation: 5593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense View Post
How does God choose not to fore know something? He would have to fore know it first. Besides, God's foreknowledge that something will occur would not obviate the free will it took to get to that point. Do you even notice the pretzel logic required to sustain your contradictory belief system?
You're the one with "pretzel logic", because God is omnipotent.
God constitutes its own properties. Since God created beings
which possess free will, and free will of creatures does not
dimish the quality of God, it raises the quality of God, because
God does not create automatons.

Concerning the Universalist heresy, it is a fabricated lie.
I blasted "Eusebius" post with the fact that he misrepresented
Holy Scripture. Jesus Christ made salvation possible for all men,
it is not automatic for all men, nor for the angels. End of discussion.
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Old 05-07-2016, 11:01 AM
 
10,179 posts, read 10,541,144 times
Reputation: 3017
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7 View Post
You don't understand, are are citing a verse improperly.
The Word of God does not say "Christ ransomed all".
It says that He gave Himself AS A RANSOM FOR ALL.

There is a difference. A HUGE difference that you need to
understand if you want to be a Christian of sound doctrine.
Namely, that Christ's eternal sacrifice made it POSSIBLE for
us to be saved, but NOT automatic for all.
God wants all to be saved.......BUT........there will be or could be some whom
are NOT SAVED and that of course includes angels.
Doesn't that strike you as a little dopey, snowball? God says


Quote:
Isaiah 46:10


"My plan will stand, and I will accomplish everything I desire to do."

So if God desires all to be saved as you said, and if God makes a firm covenant in Isaiah 46:10 that He will accomplish all that He desires, then how on earth can God NOT accomplish all that He desires, which is to save all men???????


Your argument about God wanting all to be saved but not being able to bring His desires about is simply nonsensical. It contradicts scripture.
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