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Old 05-08-2016, 04:24 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,434,483 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
You are kidding, right? God thinks he is getting underpaid, And he owns the firm.

But I have to agree with Finn, here. The ransom is paid and everyone can go free, if they want.

If they don't want, they don't get forced. I'll skip the tricky bit about how that means that God cannot do whatever he likes since our refusal to go free means that he can't make us. Admittedly he made that rule in the first place, but then, he made all the rules.

No, I just wonder, if we refuse to be ransomed, what happens to us? You don't believe in Hell, so what do we get?
That is not how ransom works.
If one does a complete study on "ransom" throughout the Scriptures, one just come to the conclusion that a person enslaved, if he didn't want to be ransomed, if he wanted to stay with the wife his slave owner gave him, then he could refuse to be ransomed by his kinsman redeemer. In that case he would stay with his slave owner. However, if the enslaved one accepted to be ransomed and the ransom was paid, he had to leave his wife and slave owner. But the slave owner could not send him away empty handed.

All mankind are enslaved to Sin and Death. These two great slave owners hold humanity. However Christ ransomed all mankind. Therefore all mankind must be freed from Sin and Death and freed into God's salvation.

Mankind cannot, at this point in time refuse the ransom paid for them. It is too late. The ransom was already paid.
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Old 05-08-2016, 04:36 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,434,483 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Euse - What do you think perishing is meaning ?. Your second paragraph makes perfectly good sense if salvation is dependent upon the anti bible version of right belief. It never was ever about believing the right things.
In my concordance I looked up "perish" and it said "see lose".
Under "lose" it has "apollumi FROM-WHOLE-LOOSE."

Look at it this way. A horse is in a fenced area. It lives a *whole*-some life. It is well cared for. But one day it breaks out of its area and runs *loose.*. It breaks away and wanders. It has wondered from its wholesome environment. It has become "from-whole-loose" and is in a state of destruction or perishness or lostness.

Jesus came to seek and to save the lost/perished/destroyed sheep of the House of Israel. None are so lost/perished/destroyed that they cannot be saved.

Last edited by Eusebius; 05-08-2016 at 04:53 AM..
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Old 05-08-2016, 04:41 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,195 posts, read 19,981,427 times
Reputation: 2107
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
You are kidding, right? God thinks he is getting underpaid, And he owns the firm.

But I have to agree with Finn, here. The ransom is paid and everyone can go free, if they want.

If they don't want, they don't get forced. I'll skip the tricky bit about how that means that God cannot do whatever he likes since our refusal to go free means that he can't make us. Admittedly he made that rule in the first place, but then, he made all the rules.

No, I just wonder, if we refuse to be ransomed, what happens to us? You don't believe in Hell, so what do we get?
I have never known anyone to turn down something they are in need of. A guy who has been doing some work for me had his electricity shut off. Do you think he turned down the offer help when it was presented to him?.
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Old 05-08-2016, 05:06 AM
 
34,541 posts, read 8,904,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
I have never known anyone to turn down something they are in need of. A guy who has been doing some work for me had his electricity shut off. Do you think he turned down the offer help when it was presented to him?.
But are we in need of it? I have given some thought to the concept of eternal (heavenly) life, and frankly I'd prefer oblivion, thank you very much - that's if I am given the option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
That is not how ransom works.
If one does a complete study on "ransom" throughout the Scriptures, one just come to the conclusion that a person enslaved, if he didn't want to be ransomed, if he wanted to stay with the wife his slave owner gave him, then he could refuse to be ransomed by his kinsman redeemer. In that case he would stay with his slave owner. However, if the enslaved one accepted to be ransomed and the ransom was paid, he had to leave his wife and slave owner. But the slave owner could not send him away empty handed.

All mankind are enslaved to Sin and Death. These two great slave owners hold humanity. However Christ ransomed all mankind. Therefore all mankind must be freed from Sin and Death and freed into God's salvation.

Mankind cannot, at this point in time refuse the ransom paid for them. It is too late. The ransom was already paid.
Ok. So the price is paid and we are freed, even if the slave would prefer to stay (if you think that is impossible, the Bible shows how it is done).

Aside from free will considerations, I gather that everyone is going to be saved, by cracky, whether they like it or not.

I'd just ask -
(a) if so, what is the point of evil, Satan and all the rest of it? Just some amusement for God?

(b) If we are all going to be saved, what advantage is there in being a God -believer?
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Old 05-08-2016, 05:17 AM
 
34,541 posts, read 8,904,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
In my concordance I looked up "perish" and it said "see lose".
Under "lose" it has "apollumi FROM-WHOLE-LOOSE."

Look at it this way. A horse is in a fenced area. It lives a *whole*-some life. It is well cared for. But one day it breaks out of its area and runs *loose.*. It breaks away and wanders. It has wondered from its wholesome environment. It has become "from-whole-loose" and is in a state of destruction or perishness or lostness.

Jesus came to seek and to save the lost/perished/destroyed sheep of the House of Israel. None are so lost/perished/destroyed that they cannot be saved.
I think, if you examine that analogy, you may find some flaws. I imagine the owner of the horse feels he is doing it a favour by keeping it from the dangers of the wild, and the horse may be Broken (by random Factors, what an appropriate term) into accepting the bondage. But haven't you seen the slo -mo films of horses running free and felt the implication that was a better life for them?

Cue 'Too reliant on themselves..Proud, unwilling to submit..." as though that was necessarily a bad thing.

A small point, but just to pick that your Reading has tried to slip an Assumption past us without us noticeing, in order to help make your case.

Aren't you glad that I'm on it?
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Old 05-08-2016, 05:38 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,434,483 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
But are we in need of it? I have given some thought to the concept of eternal (heavenly) life, and frankly I'd prefer oblivion, thank you very much - that's if I am given the option.
You don't have that option.

[quoteOk. So the price is paid and we are freed, even if the slave would prefer to stay (if you think that is impossible, the Bible shows how it is done). [/quote]

No one can choose not to be ransomed since the ransom has already been paid. How could Adam and Eve, as an example, refuse to be ransomed since they died long before the ransom was paid? Did you refuse to be ransomed? No. The ransom was paid long before you were even born. It is too late. Your salvation from sin and death into God's freedom of salvation is inevitable.

Mankind, including believers, are not freed yet. Proleptically we are but mankind, including believers, have not entered into the freedom yet. how do I know? We all still sin and all are still dying. But one day the believers enter into that glorious freedom and later on, the rest enter into that freedom:

Romans 8:20-22 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation" (21) that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." (22) For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.


Quote:
Aside from free will considerations, I gather that everyone is going to be saved, by cracky, whether they like it or not.
That is correct. But they will like it. I don't know of any soldiers who were captured by the Japanese or Germans who were not happy to be freed.
Quote:
I'd just ask -
(a) if so, what is the point of evil, Satan and all the rest of it? Just some amusement for God?
It is all about the knowledge of good and evil and the appreciation of the good in being freed from the evil.

Quote:
(b) If we are all going to be saved, what advantage is there in being a God -believer?
I take it you are asking "what advantage is there in being a God?" "What advantage is there in being a believer"?
The better question would be "If all are going to be saved, why did Christ even have to die for mankind and ransom mankind?" The answer is that if Christ did not die for all mankind, if Christ did not ransom all mankind, then all mankind could not be saved. If there were no God, there would be no Christ, there would be no ransom and therefore no one could be saved. Of course, if there were no God to begin with, you wouldn't be around to even ask your questions in the first place.
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Old 05-08-2016, 05:41 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,434,483 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I think, if you examine that analogy, you may find some flaws. I imagine the owner of the horse feels he is doing it a favour by keeping it from the dangers of the wild, and the horse may be Broken (by random Factors, what an appropriate term) into accepting the bondage. But haven't you seen the slo -mo films of horses running free and felt the implication that was a better life for them?

Cue 'Too reliant on themselves..Proud, unwilling to submit..." as though that was necessarily a bad thing.

A small point, but just to pick that your Reading has tried to slip an Assumption past us without us noticeing, in order to help make your case.

Aren't you glad that I'm on it?
But in this case the horse is loosed from a wholesome situation into a very bad situation.

If a lost sheep had it so well in being lost/destroyed, why would the Good Shepherd seek it until He find it?
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Old 05-08-2016, 08:38 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,494 posts, read 31,888,415 times
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People turn down things they need all the time. Think about drug addicts for example. They need help, and they know help is available, but they choose to stay on drugs, and many die that way. Many parents pay for treatment for their addicted children, but they refuse it. It is the same with Christ ransom.

"Take my hand, and you shall live".

Too often the answer is "NO".
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Old 05-08-2016, 09:00 AM
 
17,742 posts, read 8,879,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
People turn down things they need all the time. Think about drug addicts for example. They need help, and they know help is available, but they choose to stay on drugs, and many die that way. Many parents pay for treatment for their addicted children, but they refuse it. It is the same with Christ ransom.

"Take my hand, and you shall live".

Too often the answer is "NO".
You are only blind, if you cannot see:

As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus said, neither this man, nor his parents sinned, but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
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Old 05-08-2016, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
12,920 posts, read 4,931,025 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
People turn down things they need all the time. Think about drug addicts for example. They need help, and they know help is available, but they choose to stay on drugs, and many die that way. Many parents pay for treatment for their addicted children, but they refuse it. It is the same with Christ ransom.

"Take my hand, and you shall live".

Too often the answer is "NO".
Not everyone wants to live forever.

After 100 trillion years I'd probably go nuts, even if I had 72 virgins.
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