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Old 05-19-2016, 10:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
So it is okay for some of you who go by the name of "Christian" to be disobedient to God concerning 1 Timothy 4:10,11?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electron View Post
Matthew 22:14

So are you okay with denying God of His justice?
Here is the verse you referenced:
Mat 22:14 "For many are the called, yet few are the chosen."

You didn't answer my question.
No, it is not okay to deny God concerning His justice. Why would you think I am okay with that?

Do you even know what Matthew 22:14 is about and did you know it does not contradict 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10,11?
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Old 05-19-2016, 12:52 PM
 
1,286 posts, read 2,167,720 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Here is the verse you referenced:
Mat 22:14 "For many are the called, yet few are the chosen."

You didn't answer my question.
No, it is not okay to deny God concerning His justice. Why would you think I am okay with that?

Do you even know what Matthew 22:14 is about and did you know it does not contradict 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10,11?
Yes. I did that to show that you cannot simply take one or two verses and make an entire doctrinal statement. The reason I find universalism to be nonsense is because those who have an over-realized focus on God's love are claiming that God is forcing his beloved creatures to do something that they do not want to do- go to heaven.

I don't think you would be okay with denying God his vengeance, but you used the same blanket accusation by stating that some of us are disobedient according to 1 Timothy 4:10-11. So I ask you this: Do you know that that is a general call to repentance and salvation, available to all, but required of none?
I know that Matthew 22:14 does not contradict the 1 Timothy passage. It parallels it as a call to repentance, but not everybody makes the cut. How you pull universal salvation from that, I do not know.
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Old 05-19-2016, 01:23 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,823 posts, read 9,815,113 times
Reputation: 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electron View Post
Yes. I did that to show that you cannot simply take one or two verses and make an entire doctrinal statement. The reason I find universalism to be nonsense is because those who have an over-realized focus on God's love are claiming that God is forcing his beloved creatures to do something that they do not want to do- go to heaven.

I don't think you would be okay with denying God his vengeance, but you used the same blanket accusation by stating that some of us are disobedient according to 1 Timothy 4:10-11. So I ask you this: Do you know that that is a general call to repentance and salvation, available to all, but required of none?
I know that Matthew 22:14 does not contradict the 1 Timothy passage. It parallels it as a call to repentance, but not everybody makes the cut. How you pull universal salvation from that, I do not know.
fortunately we are told how they do:
2 Timothy 4:3
Acts 20:30
Matthew 25:30-46 alone refutes the "all = all inclusive" falsehood application of 1 Timothy 4:10-11
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Old 05-19-2016, 01:45 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,434,483 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
fortunately we are told how they do:
2 Timothy 4:3
Acts 20:30
Matthew 25:30-46 alone refutes the "all = all inclusive" falsehood application of 1 Timothy 4:10-11
2Ti 4:3 For the era will be when they will not tolerate sound teaching, but, their hearing being tickled, they will heap up for themselves teachers in accord with their own desires, "

The sound teaching they will not tolerate is that Christ ransomed all mankind and for that reason "God will have all mankind to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4-6).

Act 20:30 And from among yourselves will arise men, speaking perverse things to pull away disciples after themselves."

The perverse things they will speak is that God will NOT have all mankind to be saved even though Christ ransomed all mankind. And they will speak that God is NOT the Saviour of all mankind even though the Bible says He is.

Matthew 25:30-46 does not in any way refute the "all" of 1 Timothy 2:4-6 or 4:10. Matthew 25:31-46 is concerned with Christ's return to set up His kingdom and judge the nations as to how they treated His brethren. In fact, Matthew 25:31-46 occurs thousands of years before God saves all mankind.
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Old 05-19-2016, 01:56 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,434,483 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electron View Post
Yes. I did that to show that you cannot simply take one or two verses and make an entire doctrinal statement.
You referenced only one verse.



Quote:
The reason I find universalism to be nonsense is because those who have an over-realized focus on God's love are claiming that God is forcing his beloved creatures to do something that they do not want to do- go to heaven.
That is so nonsensical. God doesn't have for force anyone to do anything. He merely saves all mankind from death and gives them immortality and incorruption. I'm sure if He offered you that right this minute you would turn Him down.

Quote:
I don't think you would be okay with denying God his vengeance, but you used the same blanket accusation by stating that some of us are disobedient according to 1 Timothy 4:10-11. So I ask you this: Do you know that that is a general call to repentance and salvation, available to all, but required of none?
I don't deny God's judgments. But there is not one verse, properly translated which tells us God is going to eternally torture people. That would contradict 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and you know, we just can't have contradictions in the Bible.

There is nothing in 1 Timothy 2:4-6 or 4:10 telling us man has something to do to add to what Christ did for humans to save themselves.


Quote:
I know that Matthew 22:14 does not contradict the 1 Timothy passage. It parallels it as a call to repentance, but not everybody makes the cut. How you pull universal salvation from that, I do not know.
Matthew 22:14 has nothing to do with a call to repentance. It has to do with those whom God has chosen out of all the ones called. It says they are ****chosen****. It doesn't say they ****choose****. "Many are called but few are chosen" (Matt.22:14).

God has chosen x number of people for eonian life which is life pertaining to the oncoming eons. This does not mean He will not save the rest of mankind at the consummation of the eons.
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Old 05-19-2016, 02:13 PM
 
1,286 posts, read 2,167,720 times
Reputation: 670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
You referenced only one verse.

I did that on purpose


That is so nonsensical. God doesn't have for force anyone to do anything. He merely saves all mankind from death and gives them immortality and incorruption. I'm sure if He offered you that right this minute you would turn Him down.

John 6:44 disagrees with your assessment.

I don't deny God's judgments. But there is not one verse, properly translated which tells us God is going to eternally torture people. That would contradict 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and you know, we just can't have contradictions in the Bible.

There is nothing in 1 Timothy 2:4-6 or 4:10 telling us man has something to do to add to what Christ did for humans to save themselves.

Try reading Romans 9 and see how well the fantasy of universalism holds up.

Matthew 22:14 has nothing to do with a call to repentance. It has to do with those whom God has chosen out of all the ones called. It says they are ****chosen****. It doesn't say they ****choose****. "Many are called but few are chosen" (Matt.22:14).

God has chosen x number of people for eonian life which is life pertaining to the oncoming eons. This does not mean He will not save the rest of mankind at the consummation of the eons.
Boy that's a stretch, assuming that it means that He will.

You're making a lot of assumptions bro.
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Old 05-19-2016, 03:10 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,434,483 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
You referenced only one verse.

I did that on purpose
I see, you are allowed to pick and choose one verse but we aren't. Got it!

Quote:
That is so nonsensical. God doesn't have for force anyone to do anything. He merely saves all mankind from death and gives them immortality and incorruption. I'm sure if He offered you that right this minute you would turn Him down.

John 6:44 disagrees with your assessment.
Okay, here is John 6:44:
John 6:44 No one can come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing him. And I shall be raising him in the last day.

Well, you did write this:
The reason I find universalism to be nonsense is because those who have an over-realized focus on God's love are claiming that God is forcing his beloved creatures to do something that they do not want to do- go to heaven.

And when I said God doesn't have to force anyone, you now say He does. Well does He or doesn't He?



Quote:
Eusebius wrote: I don't deny God's judgments. But there is not one verse, properly translated which tells us God is going to eternally torture people. That would contradict 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and you know, we just can't have contradictions in the Bible.

There is nothing in 1 Timothy 2:4-6 or 4:10 telling us man has something to do to add to what Christ did for humans to save themselves.
Quote:
Try reading Romans 9 and see how well the fantasy of universalism holds up.
There is nothing in Romans 9 which tells humanity they have to do something to add to Christ's death for them.

Quote:
Eusebius wrote: Matthew 22:14 has nothing to do with a call to repentance. It has to do with those whom God has chosen out of all the ones called. It says they are ****chosen****. It doesn't say they ****choose****. "Many are called but few are chosen" (Matt.22:14).

God has chosen x number of people for eonian life which is life pertaining to the oncoming eons. This does not mean He will not save the rest of mankind at the consummation of the eons.
Quote:
Boy that's a stretch, assuming that it means that He will.
So you don't believe God chooses certain ones for salvation to eonian life?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Electron View Post
You're making a lot of assumptions bro.
Not really.
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Old 05-20-2016, 09:07 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,823 posts, read 9,815,113 times
Reputation: 1301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
2Ti 4:3 For the era will be when they will not tolerate sound teaching, but, their hearing being tickled, they will heap up for themselves teachers in accord with their own desires, "

The sound teaching they will not tolerate is that Christ ransomed all mankind and for that reason "God will have all mankind to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4-6).

Act 20:30 And from among yourselves will arise men, speaking perverse things to pull away disciples after themselves."

The perverse things they will speak is that God will NOT have all mankind to be saved even though Christ ransomed all mankind. And they will speak that God is NOT the Saviour of all mankind even though the Bible says He is.

Matthew 25:30-46 does not in any way refute the "all" of 1 Timothy 2:4-6 or 4:10. Matthew 25:31-46 is concerned with Christ's return to set up His kingdom and judge the nations as to how they treated His brethren. In fact, Matthew 25:31-46 occurs thousands of years before God saves all mankind.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, = Christ ransomed all mankind
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life = UR is:
  • the Acts 20:30,
  • 2 Timothy 4:3
and ultimately
  • Galatians 1:8-9 ... the preaching of a different gospel plan whom those who do are under the same curse as those on the left of Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46


on btw ..Millennialism will be shown for what it is
------
The crass literal reading of the OT\NT of Jesus' return
A
" transport of it (the Bible) into the stratosphere of their own esoteric speculations"
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Old 05-20-2016, 09:48 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,434,483 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, = Christ ransomed all mankind
that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life = UR is:
  • the Acts 20:30,
  • 2 Timothy 4:3
and ultimately
  • Galatians 1:8-9 ... the preaching of a different gospel plan whom those who do are under the same curse as those on the left of Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46


on btw ..Millennialism will be shown for what it is
------
The crass literal reading of the OT\NT of Jesus' return
A
" transport of it (the Bible) into the stratosphere of their own esoteric speculations"
Dear twin, Christ's ransoming of mankind is not an offer to accept it.
If one goes through every verse in the Old Testament they will see that a ransom can be refused BEFORE it is made. However, once the ransom is made, the animal or person it is made for MUST BE FREED. I am sorry but I didn't make the rules, God did.

Now then, all the verses such as John 3:16 which informs us of "whosoever believes" is concerned with life for the oncoming eons/ages which are the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ on earth and the new heavens and earth which comes when that 1000 year reign ends. Those who are not given the grace and faith to believe will not get life to live through the duration of those two eons.

There is no verse in the bible which states that if one does not believe that they will never ever be saved.

At to Galatians 1:8-9, the different gospel is concerned with mixing works with faith. That is what Galatians is all about and what Paul was correcting. Such ones are to be anathema. And, no, one who is anathema is not under the same curse as Matthew 25:31-46. That chastening is for the nations as to how they treated Christ's brethren during their 3 1/2 years of tribulation. Paul told the Galations "Let them be anathema." In other words "Just let them be devoted to their own ways."

You referenced Acts 20:30 above. It states:
"And from among yourselves will arise men, speaking perverse things to pull away disciples after themselves."
That is not about us. That is concerning ones speaking perverse things. God tells us to charge and teach that "God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially [not just] them that believe" and that God will have all mankind to be saved for Christ gave Himself a ransom for all (see 1 Tim.2:4-6; 4:10,11). Now then surely you don't believe God is the author of perverse things?
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Old 05-20-2016, 10:27 AM
 
17,740 posts, read 8,879,421 times
Reputation: 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Dear twin, Christ's ransoming of mankind is not an offer to accept it.
He believes in the concept of reneging or that of being schizophrenic, which leads to faulty perceptions.
It's the breakdown between thoughts, emotions, and behavior that contradicts logic and reasoning.

In other words, he demands more than what is reasonable predicated on his delusions.
An idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted.

Typically, it's a symptom of extreme fundamentalism.
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