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Old 03-26-2016, 01:30 PM
 
10,183 posts, read 10,549,080 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
Jesus said few are finding it, which is the truth. Jesus also said that the future number of the Sons of God "cannot be measured or numbered" which you just numbered at 8 million. Pot kettle.

If Jesus died just so that a few could find the Way then Jesus was the most colossal failure in human history. Imagine saying "I will draw all men to myself" and then in the next breath saying "Wide is the gate to eternal destruction and most men go through it." Biggest contradiction I ever read in the Bible and believe me there are thousands of them.
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Old 03-26-2016, 03:38 PM
 
4,062 posts, read 1,455,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
If Jesus died just so that a few could find the Way then Jesus was the most colossal failure in human history. Imagine saying "I will draw all men to myself" and then in the next breath saying "Wide is the gate to eternal destruction and most men go through it." Biggest contradiction I ever read in the Bible and believe me there are thousands of them.



Actually Jesus died for repented sin. Not for practiced sin-Heb 10:26--Matt 7:21-23)-- no contradiction-- most are blinded, they see like this-2Cor 4:4-- they do not like truth, they want their ears tickled.
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Old 03-26-2016, 03:39 PM
 
4,062 posts, read 1,455,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney View Post
...Huh?! ...Chapter and Verse please...



Paul didn't say that--no real follower of Christ, lies for any reasoning.
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Old 03-26-2016, 06:44 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,564,897 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
If Jesus died just so that a few could find the Way then Jesus was the most colossal failure in human history. Imagine saying "I will draw all men to myself" and then in the next breath saying "Wide is the gate to eternal destruction and most men go through it." Biggest contradiction I ever read in the Bible and believe me there are thousands of them.
I can understand why you see that as a contradiction. But the way I see it, it's not.

- Few (present tense) are entering through the narrow gate - faith and obedience, forgiveness, mercy, love your neighbor, love your enemy, trust in God.
- Many (present tense) are entering through the wide gate.
- Jesus will (future tense) draw all men to Himself.

The scriptures teach that there is none good, none seeking God etc. That's the many (all) on the path to destruction. Enter God, the Savior. One by one, few by few, He draws sinners back to Himself. He draws those who are on the path to destruction, like the prodigal son, who actually tasted destruction. Didn't he enter the wide gate? If not, how was he dead and destroyed according to the scripture. Yet he was later drawn back to the Father.

So it's a process. God does not draw everyone all at once:

Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

(Abraham's seed is a spiritual seed, not Israel over there in the middle east. Offspring of God, born of His Spirit. God promised to multiply his seed till it was as the stars of heaven and sand of the sea, blessing all nations and families of the earth.)

Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 03-26-2016 at 06:53 PM..
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Old 03-26-2016, 06:52 PM
 
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we all go to the same place when we die. So make of that what you will.
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Old 03-27-2016, 01:43 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,147 posts, read 2,742,838 times
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ELECTION
Eventually everyone will be saved.
Because men have failed to see and understand the doctrine of election, it has propagated false ideas of salvation. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement.
"In 1Tim. 4:9-11 we are told that the living God `is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe,' and with this 1Tim. 2: 4-6 concurs. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement. That there is a special salvation for believers is plainly stated, but this does not limit the other part of the statement, rather does it emphasize it. The salvation of believers is a special work; they are a special class in the `all mankind.' God's will for mankind is salvation, not as an experimental salvation toying with the will and choice of men, but as their Disposer – God.
My dear brethren, let us embrace this glorious truth which God has revealed for us. Let it so become a part of us that our lives will be reflecting it. Let it fill our hearts with the love of God and His glorious Son. Let us be rendering praise to the living God, the universal Creator and Reconciler, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
`To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!' " - E.G.Jones

REDEMPTION IN TWO PARTS - J. Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/allinall.html

At the present time salvation is enjoyed only by those who believe; the balance of mankind will be saved at the consummation. A savior is one who actually saves. God is the savior of all mankind, not just the ‘potential’ savior. When the truth concerning the eons displaces the error about eternity, judgment and grace are seen to work harmoniously together till each reaches its predestined goal. All the threats of punishment to follow the judgment of the wicked can be accepted at their full, dreadful value without doing violence to our innate sense of justice, and without denying the predictions of a final victory of grace.
Don Bast
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Old 03-27-2016, 01:49 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,147 posts, read 2,742,838 times
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THE GOSPEL – BERT BAUMAN
“Our popular English Bible carries the name of an earthly monarch and so bears mute testimony to the influence the English King had over the translators. His directive to ‘do nothing that will disturb the tranquility of the church’, appears to have been taken very seriously by the translators since they often chose to interpret certain Greek words to support then current church doctrine, rather than render a faithful and consistent translation of the original.
I must confess to the admiration I feel for the absolute brilliance of Satan’s cunning and strategy. He has effectively polluted the entire fountain of truth from which Christians drink by causing confusion in the meaning of the single word aion, and its adjective aionios. It does not seem that this single word could be so important as to produce calamitous results, but it is just here that we see the utter genius of our adversary. Perhaps no other word, erroneously translated, could cause such widespread confusion and distortion of the truth. Practically all Christian doctrine is affected: the purposes of God, the nature of God, judgment, man’s destiny, and salvation – to say nothing of its effect upon our concept of the very God we worship and the way we treat one another as Christians, and the world at large.”

“The doctrine of eternal torment is not found in the Scripture but the teaching of judgment certainly is. But why judgment? Is it a matter of God’s vengeance only? The scriptures suggest that God’s judgments are desirable but not necessarily enjoyable. It is never pleasant to be judged, but the fruit of judgment is desirable. Correction produces righteousness which yields the fruit of the Spirit. Therefore, while the chastening is unpleasant, the results are a blessing. Out of love for His creatures, God chastens, and corrects. He judges His creatures for their own good.
Did not Jesus teach us to love and do good even to our enemies? And while He admonishes us to be perfect even as our heavenly Father, would our Father be less than we are expected to be? Can love pour out vengeance for its own gratification, or judge to satisfy its own sense of justice? The result of God’s judgments must ultimately be profitable and beneficial to the one being punished, ‘for the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them’ (Luke 9:56).”
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Old 03-27-2016, 01:51 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Having read several books against the Bible teaching universal salvation it is my observation that the authors simply could not accept God’s plan for the ages of time as revealed in a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible.
THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED

GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be “the god of this eon” (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."

GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html
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Old 03-28-2016, 12:07 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,434,483 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47 View Post
Actually Jesus died for repented sin.
Christ died for sinners. All sin. Therefore all have been died for.

Quote:
Not for practiced sin-Heb 10:26--Matt 7:21-23)-- no contradiction-- most are blinded, they see like this-2Cor 4:4-- they do not like truth, they want their ears tickled.
Let's have a little lookie at your verses referenced above:

Matthew 7:21-23 every one saying to Me 'Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens. (22) Many will be declaring to Me in that day, 'Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds? (23) And then shall I be avowing to them that 'I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'

First of all, let me say this: Christ does not say "I will never know you." Secondly, the above verse is only in relation to the kingdom of the heavens Christ will be setting up in Israel during the millennial reign. Those people will have to depart out of Israel and live amongst the goat nations. Christ still died for their sins but He did not die so they would not have needful correction.

The next verse you referenced was:

Hebrews 10:26-27 For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins, (27) but a certain fearful waiting for judging and fiery jealousy, about to be eating the hostile."

Here is a commentary on the above verse:

[SIZE=2]27 Under the law, one who sinned "presumptuously" (Num 15:30), or, as the Hebrew has it, "with a high hand", was to be cut off from among his people, because he had despised the word of Jehovah and broken His commandment. The man who gathered sticks on the sabbath day was stoned to death (Num 15:32-36). The voluntary sin here referred to is doubtless the repudiation of the truth and apostasy from the faith. The faith of the Hebrews, having been founded on the powers and signs which were given as a token of the near approach of the kingdom, was sorely tried when these signs ceased and the kingdom did not come. But those who drew back could not do so without reproaching God and trampling on the Son of God and inviting the fiery jealousy of Jehovah. For such there is no sin offering, since they refuse the only Sacrifice that is of any avail. They are calling down the vengeance of God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]How great is the contrast between these Hebrews and those who came under the ministry of Paul! Their faith did not fail for lack of evidence, because it was never founded on it (2Cor 5:7). They come so completely under the dominion of grace, that persistence in sin would only increase the outflowing of favor (Rom 6:1). We are beyond the sphere of condemnation (Rom 8:1). The Hebrews were never introduced into such grace as this, for their destiny is the kingdom.[/SIZE]

And in Unsearchable Riches magazine it is written concerning this verse:

"No More Sacrifice for Sins"

Christ's sacrifice will never be repeated. Those who reject it will receive "judgment and fiery indignation" (Heb.10:26-31[7][8][10}). They fall into the hands of the living God. But there is no indication that their judgment will be endless. Like millions more, they will be disciplined. The same God Who wrote Hebrews, and has told us of their offense, also wrote Timothy, and tells us of their subsequent salvation.
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Old 03-28-2016, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,147 posts, read 2,742,838 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Christ died for sinners. All sin. Therefore all have been died for.

Let's have a little lookie at your verses referenced above:

Matthew 7:21-23 every one saying to Me 'Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens. (22) Many will be declaring to Me in that day, 'Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds? (23) And then shall I be avowing to them that 'I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'

First of all, let me say this: Christ does not say "I will never know you." Secondly, the above verse is only in relation to the kingdom of the heavens Christ will be setting up in Israel during the millennial reign. Those people will have to depart out of Israel and live amongst the goat nations. Christ still died for their sins but He did not die so they would not have needful correction.

The next verse you referenced was:

Hebrews 10:26-27 For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins, (27) but a certain fearful waiting for judging and fiery jealousy, about to be eating the hostile."

Here is a commentary on the above verse:

27 Under the law, one who sinned "presumptuously" (Num 15:30), or, as the Hebrew has it, "with a high hand", was to be cut off from among his people, because he had despised the word of Jehovah and broken His commandment. The man who gathered sticks on the sabbath day was stoned to death (Num 15:32-36). The voluntary sin here referred to is doubtless the repudiation of the truth and apostasy from the faith. The faith of the Hebrews, having been founded on the powers and signs which were given as a token of the near approach of the kingdom, was sorely tried when these signs ceased and the kingdom did not come. But those who drew back could not do so without reproaching God and trampling on the Son of God and inviting the fiery jealousy of Jehovah. For such there is no sin offering, since they refuse the only Sacrifice that is of any avail. They are calling down the vengeance of God
How great is the contrast between these Hebrews and those who came under the ministry of Paul! Their faith did not fail for lack of evidence, because it was never founded on it (2Cor 5:7). They come so completely under the dominion of grace, that persistence in sin would only increase the outflowing of favor (Rom 6:1). We are beyond the sphere of condemnation (Rom 8:1). The Hebrews were never introduced into such grace as this, for their destiny is the kingdom.

And in Unsearchable Riches magazine it is written concerning this verse:

"No More Sacrifice for Sins"

Christ's sacrifice will never be repeated. Those who reject it will receive "judgment and fiery indignation" (Heb.10:26-31[7][8][10}). They fall into the hands of the living God. But there is no indication that their judgment will be endless. Like millions more, they will be disciplined. The same God Who wrote Hebrews, and has told us of their offense, also wrote Timothy, and tells us of their subsequent salvation.

Thanks Eusebius. Your writing is very helpful to me!
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