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Old 05-20-2016, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
595 posts, read 212,009 times
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Looks like a lot of people here are picking and choosing what parts of the Bible they want to accept. That is fine as long as they don't pretend they are doing something else. For there are BOTH passages which talk about the universality of Christ's role as savior AND those which speak of eternal damnation. For me it comes down to this -- do we make any choices of significance? Or are all the choices of significance out of our hands and made by some well meaning big brother or being which has to be in control.

Salvation is a free gift. Being able to refuse a gift does not change into something else nor does having to accept the gift change it into something earned. But not being able to refuse something changes it from a gift to an assault. This is why free will exists -- because without choice it is not love but rape. The whole argument that love wins and is a power which cannot be defeated is fundamentally flawed. The moment what you call love becomes a means means to power then it ceases to be love at all.

I believe in hell because I see it in the world. But what I see is a creation of human beings not of God. I cannot help but thing those who cast God in this role have made religion into a tool of man for power and control. What I also see in the world is a quite frequent addiction by people to their own misery and a stubborn refusal to change. I believe that God's perfect justice is that He gives us precisely what we want -- either our heart's desire which is invariably corrupt and misled or His desire for us through the surrender of our heart to Him.
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Old 05-21-2016, 08:05 AM
 
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Old 05-21-2016, 08:10 AM
 
Location: East Coast
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The same faith I have in Jesus Christ is the same God given faith I have to know that none are lost.
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Old 05-21-2016, 08:11 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,473,499 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchellmckain View Post
Looks like a lot of people here are picking and choosing what parts of the Bible they want to accept. That is fine as long as they don't pretend they are doing something else. For there are BOTH passages which talk about the universality of Christ's role as savior AND those which speak of eternal damnation. For me it comes down to this -- do we make any choices of significance? Or are all the choices of significance out of our hands and made by some well meaning big brother or being which has to be in control.
No, BOTH passage talk about the universality of Christ's role as Saviour AND those which speak of age-enduring damnation.

Quote:
Salvation is a free gift. Being able to refuse a gift does not change into something else nor does having to accept the gift change it into something earned. But not being able to refuse something changes it from a gift to an assault. This is why free will exists -- because without choice it is not love but rape. The whole argument that love wins and is a power which cannot be defeated is fundamentally flawed. The moment what you call love becomes a means means to power then it ceases to be love at all.
Salvation is not a gift that can be refused in the ultimate sense of the word. It can't be opened. It is a gift given by God and is not opened by the receptor. It is just enjoyed.

Quote:
I believe in hell because I see it in the world. But what I see is a creation of human beings not of God. I cannot help but thing those who cast God in this role have made religion into a tool of man for power and control. What I also see in the world is a quite frequent addiction by people to their own misery and a stubborn refusal to change. I believe that God's perfect justice is that He gives us precisely what we want -- either our heart's desire which is invariably corrupt and misled or His desire for us through the surrender of our heart to Him.
God doesn't give us what we want. He gives us what we need.

God's perfect justice, as you mention above is that He accepted Christ's ransoming of all mankind. His justice therefore demands that "all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4-6). If anyone goes to some sort of eternal hell then that would be an injustice to Christ and humanity for all He did for us.
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Old 05-21-2016, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
595 posts, read 212,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
No, BOTH passage talk about the universality of Christ's role as Saviour AND those which speak of age-enduring damnation.
Sorry. This dodge doesn't work. The word used when Jesus speaks of eternal life and the word used when Jesus speaks of eternal fire are the same word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Salvation is not a gift that can be refused in the ultimate sense of the word. It can't be opened. It is a gift given by God and is not opened by the receptor. It is just enjoyed.
So the rapist insists all his victims enjoy what he forces on them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
God doesn't give us what we want. He gives us what we need.
That is certainly what God wants to do and tries to do and I spoke of that in my post. But it is the nature of life and love that this isn't always possible. If someone else makes all the choices which matter then it is neither life nor love. Sometimes what we need cannot be simply given to us and anyway it is rather presumptuous to dictate what others need. It is corollary of life, love, and free will that sometimes people choose death, refuse love and even discard their own free will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
God's perfect justice, as you mention above is that He accepted Christ's ransoming of all mankind. His justice therefore demands that "all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4-6). If anyone goes to some sort of eternal hell then that would be an injustice to Christ and humanity for all He did for us.
That is not what the Bible teaches at all. I definitely think we find more justice in a wrongdoer accepting that what he has done is wrong and trying to make up for it, than we do in any kind of punishment. But for those who refuse, there is no justice in giving them a pass on it anyway.

I think you are indulging in this delusion of love as some kind of ultimate power (which I think is an oxymoron) by which everyone can ultimately be changed (which is bit naive). Or perhaps this is because you actually don't believe in free will and that we are all simply a product of external forces. In which case the idea of making no choices of significance wouldn't bother you in the slightest. But I don't think life and consciousness can even exist in the type of world you envision because it frankly sounds no different to me that a videotape.

Furthermore it is ludicrous to claim that people having what they insist on having is some kind of injustice. What sounds much more like injustice to me is your system where people are forced into someone else's vision of happiness against their will.
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Old 05-22-2016, 12:18 AM
 
17,993 posts, read 8,959,413 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchellmckain View Post
The word used when Jesus speaks of eternal life and the word used when Jesus speaks of eternal fire are the same word.
Yes, however, it is not a reference to that which is Eternal (aidios), having no beginning or end. The words endless torment (adialeipton timorion), eternal imprisonment (aidios eirgmos) or eternal punishment (aidios kalasin) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, at least not in conjunction. Therefore, whoever says that there is an eternal (aidios) time set for punishment (kalasin) beyond this life is sadly mistaken. It's a limited duration of aionion (age-enduring) kalasin (punishment - chastisement or correction which is in view), but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable. If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used. But not even Jesus used the word for eternal in conjunction with punishment.

I call that problematic or questionable?

As for eternal life without beginning or end, you may consider what it means to put on immortality.
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Old 05-22-2016, 03:53 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
595 posts, read 212,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Yes, however, it is not a reference to that which is Eternal (aidios), having no beginning or end.
Agreed. Like many words it has more than one usage. In this case, it means without end. Take a look at Matthew 25:46, there we see the contrast:
And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
Same word in both cases and you do not do that if they don't mean the same thing -- otherwise in such a case you would use two different words when you compare them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The words endless torment (adialeipton timorion), eternal imprisonment (aidios eirgmos) or eternal punishment (aidios kalasin) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, at least not in conjunction.
In Matthew 25 it uses the words aionion kolasin for eternal punishment and aionion zoen for eternal life.

But I don't believe this is meant literally. I don't think hell is about punishment or imprisonment. Eternal punishment in such a sense is nonsensical. The purpose of punishment is to alter behavior and thus to make it forever means it is a failure. Yet I think it is a fact that people make hellish choices about who they are and refuse to change. So yes, I think people do make choices of significance affecting their eternal destiny.

It has to do with the two logical possibilities for development. There is either growth and improvement or there is decay and decline. We either confront and remove the self-destructive habits we have made a part of us or they destroy every good thing within us. The imperishable nature of the spirit only refers to an invulnerability to external forces not when the spirit carries the seeds of its own destruction within it by its own choices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Therefore, whoever says that there is an eternal (aidios) time set for punishment (kalasin) beyond this life is sadly mistaken.
LOL How in the world could anyone be "sadly mistaken" about such a thing? Sadly mistaken only applies in the opposite case where they believe there can be no eternal consequences of their choices and there are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used. But not even Jesus used the word for eternal in conjunction with punishment.
Incorrect. That word Aidios is rarely used and never for human beings: only in Romans 1:20 speaking about God and in Jude 1:6 speaking of fallen angels. But whenever it speaks of eternal life which Jesus came to bring us, it uses the word αἰώνιον (aiōnion), the same as it uses for fire and punishment in Matthew 25.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
I call that problematic or questionable?
What is problematic and questionable is the fact that eternal life and eternal fire are presented as the two alternatives for human destiny. You cannot alter the meaning of one without altering the meaning of the other.
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Old 05-22-2016, 07:00 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,473,499 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchellmckain View Post
Agreed. Like many words it has more than one usage. In this case, it means without end. Take a look at Matthew 25:46, there we see the contrast:
And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
Same word in both cases and you do not do that if they don't mean the same thing -- otherwise in such a case you would use two different words when you compare them.
Actually the word used is "aionion" as you point out below. All ainion is is an adjective derived from its noun form "aion." No adjective is greater than the noun it is derived from. Since the Bible tells us that all the aions end, they can't be eternal. Since they can't be eternal, the adjective aionion, which tells us of things pertaining to the aions can't be eternal. So, yes, both the chastening and the life those nations get is of the same duration: "pertaining to the eon" which happens to be 1000 years duration.

Quote:
In Matthew 25 it uses the words aionion kolasin for eternal punishment and aionion zoen for eternal life.

But I don't believe this is meant literally. I don't think hell is about punishment or imprisonment. Eternal punishment in such a sense is nonsensical. The purpose of punishment is to alter behavior and thus to make it forever means it is a failure. Yet I think it is a fact that people make hellish choices about who they are and refuse to change. So yes, I think people do make choices of significance affecting their eternal destiny.
Eonian destiny.


Quote:
Incorrect. That word Aidios is rarely used and never for human beings: only in Romans 1:20 speaking about God and in Jude 1:6 speaking of fallen angels. But whenever it speaks of eternal life which Jesus came to bring us, it uses the word αἰώνιον (aiōnion), the same as it uses for fire and punishment in Matthew 25.
Aidios has the meaning of "imperceptible" not eternal. Whenever it uses aionion, it is telling us the fire and punishment is pertaining to that eon.


Quote:
What is problematic and questionable is the fact that eternal life and eternal fire are presented as the two alternatives for human destiny. You cannot alter the meaning of one without altering the meaning of the other.
Two alternitives: eonian life or eonian chastening.
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Old 05-22-2016, 08:35 AM
 
787 posts, read 300,158 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
LOUIS ABBOTT – UNIVERSAL SALVATION ASSURED
Interested students of the Word of God will decide if Louis Abbott knows what He is talking about.

AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – LOUIS ABBOTT
In the forward to his book AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS, Louis Abbott wrote, “One key area various denominations are divided over is the final destiny of the ungodly, the wicked, the unsaved, the unregenerate, or however one wishes to phrase it.
There are three views on this subject. Each position claims Scriptural support: (1) eternal torment; (2) eternal destruction; and (3) the ultimate salvation of all. It is obvious that all cannot be correct. Two of them have to be wrong.
I pray this book will be a blessing to all who are struggling with this subject.” (unquote)

Notice how Louis proves that numbers one and two are wrong according to the Bible.
This book can be read online at this link
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
An Analytical Study of Words
False prophets come and go. They have their reward during their brief time in the spotlight and then they go into the darkness of eternal deceit they have prepared for themselves.

I don't think its a stretch to state that in the modern age there are more liars around than in times past. Sales of snake oil have been popular for millenia and the purveyors of false doctrines and gospel have come and gone for a long time.

Louis Abbott is just another clown selling religious snake oil. He tickles the ear and the fancies of the mind in an attempt to persuade the reader that there are no consequences for their behavior. If possible he would persuade the whole world that they can do what they want with impunity. False doctrine and false words issue from the mouth and keyboard of this prophet of satan. His lies lead to curses and death.

Why is the truth so hard to discover today? Could it be that so many want to live their lives without restriction from either the laws of God or the laws of man. Lawlessness has increased in the land and there seems to be no respite from it. This has happened because of men like Abbott who easily persuade men and women that they have a license to sin and break the law.

Truth says that there is a reckoning for sin whether the law or philosophy of man acknowledges it or not. God is not willing that any should suffer for it, but that all should come to realize they need to reverse their attitude and behavior and seek peace with God and their fellow man. Today is the day to seek peace with God. In the name of Jesus Christ, those who seek Him with a sincere and humble heart will be forgiven.

There is no such thing as universal salvation. Those that do not make peace with God are doomed for all eternity. Justice will reign in heaven even if it doesn't on earth.

Forgiveness leads to peace with God and the restoration of law and order.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Last edited by Choir Loft; 05-22-2016 at 09:48 AM..
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Old 05-22-2016, 11:18 AM
 
17,993 posts, read 8,959,413 times
Reputation: 1509
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchellmckain View Post
Agreed. Like many words it has more than one usage. In this case, it means without end. Take a look at Matthew 25:46, there we see the contrast:
And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.
Same word in both cases and you do not do that if they don't mean the same thing -- otherwise in such a case you would use two different words when you compare them.


In Matthew 25 it uses the words aionion kolasin for eternal punishment and aionion zoen for eternal life.

But I don't believe this is meant literally. I don't think hell is about punishment or imprisonment. Eternal punishment in such a sense is nonsensical. The purpose of punishment is to alter behavior and thus to make it forever means it is a failure. Yet I think it is a fact that people make hellish choices about who they are and refuse to change. So yes, I think people do make choices of significance affecting their eternal destiny.

It has to do with the two logical possibilities for development. There is either growth and improvement or there is decay and decline. We either confront and remove the self-destructive habits we have made a part of us or they destroy every good thing within us. The imperishable nature of the spirit only refers to an invulnerability to external forces not when the spirit carries the seeds of its own destruction within it by its own choices.


LOL How in the world could anyone be "sadly mistaken" about such a thing? Sadly mistaken only applies in the opposite case where they believe there can be no eternal consequences of their choices and there are.


Incorrect. That word Aidios is rarely used and never for human beings: only in Romans 1:20 speaking about God and in Jude 1:6 speaking of fallen angels. But whenever it speaks of eternal life which Jesus came to bring us, it uses the word αἰώνιον (aiōnion), the same as it uses for fire and punishment in Matthew 25.


What is problematic and questionable is the fact that eternal life and eternal fire are presented as the two alternatives for human destiny. You cannot alter the meaning of one without altering the meaning of the other.
There are only two places in the New Testament where Aidios is used.
Which speaks to that of his eternal power, not one's destiny.

Aionios describes an undefined duration of time; not endlessness.
However, you are correct as they do not carry the same meaning.


Last edited by Jerwade; 05-22-2016 at 11:42 AM..
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