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Old 06-09-2016, 02:37 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,425,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47 View Post
Not what Jesus taught--Matt 7:21-23--he assured all right here that only those living to do his Fathers will get to enter his kingdom--there is a whole bible of that will.
You see--they did powerful works and the such in Jesus name--obviously they believe wholeheartedly yet Jesus will tell them--- Get away from me you worker of iniquity I must confess I never even knew you. ( this is judgement scenario) and because 99% of all religion claiming to be Christian are misleading all who listen to them, their jaws will be dropped by those words of Jesus at judgement. All the teachers assuring others they are saved or born again--run from them.
You are mixing up what Jesus taught the Circumcision with what Paul, the apostle of the nations taught the uncircumcision.

Believers of the nations are not born again but rather are a new creation in Christ Jesus.

Jesus never told the workers of iniquity He will never know them.

God told us He will have all mankind to be saved (1 Tim.2:4-6). Obviously they will be saved AFTER the judgments.
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Old 06-10-2016, 08:19 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,425,536 times
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Instead of using one scripture to contradict another, why not take both scriptures at face value and try to make them work together?

Of course, one problem is one must make sure the **version** they are using is properly translated.

For instance, we know God does not contradict Himself, right? But let's look at two verses from an improperly translated **version** so many accept as "the word of God" . . . .

Mat_13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Eph_3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Now we know both statements cannot be true. What causes the above contradiction? How can there be a world without end and end of the world? How do we resolve this contradiction? It is actually very simple.

Here are the same two above verses properly translated and thus removing the contradiction:

Mat 13:49 Thus shall it be in the conclusion of the eon. The messengers will be coming out and they will be severing the wicked from the midst of the just.

Eph 3:21 to Him be the glory in the ecclesia and in Christ Jesus for all the generations of the eon of the eons! Amen!

See how the KJV screwed up royally? They mistranslated "AIWN" as "world" and mistranslated "αιωνος των αιωνων" or "eon of the eons" as "world without end."

Not only that, but in Eph.3:21 they mistranslated "geneah" or "generations" as "AGES"! No wonder people have such a hard time knowing what God has actually said!

So we see why it is so important to have a properly translated **version**.

Another instance of a contradiction in the KJV **version** is this:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal," thus contradicting this passage:

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Now then, had the KJV properly translated Matthew 25:47 as:
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

There would be no contradiction.
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Old 06-11-2016, 11:48 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,574 posts, read 5,111,549 times
Reputation: 3914
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Instead of using one scripture to contradict another, why not take both scriptures at face value and try to make them work together?

Of course, one problem is one must make sure the **version** they are using is properly translated.

For instance, we know God does not contradict Himself, right? But let's look at two verses from an improperly translated **version** so many accept as "the word of God" . . . .

Mat_13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Eph_3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Now we know both statements cannot be true. What causes the above contradiction? How can there be a world without end and end of the world? How do we resolve this contradiction? It is actually very simple.

Here are the same two above verses properly translated and thus removing the contradiction:

Mat 13:49 Thus shall it be in the conclusion of the eon. The messengers will be coming out and they will be severing the wicked from the midst of the just.

Eph 3:21 to Him be the glory in the ecclesia and in Christ Jesus for all the generations of the eon of the eons! Amen!

See how the KJV screwed up royally? They mistranslated "AIWN" as "world" and mistranslated "αιωνος των αιωνων" or "eon of the eons" as "world without end."

Not only that, but in Eph.3:21 they mistranslated "geneah" or "generations" as "AGES"! No wonder people have such a hard time knowing what God has actually said!

So we see why it is so important to have a properly translated **version**.

Another instance of a contradiction in the KJV **version** is this:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal," thus contradicting this passage:

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Now then, had the KJV properly translated Matthew 25:47 as:
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

There would be no contradiction.
Still not sure I am at your position, Eusebius. But it is interesting to me that evangelicals who frequently praise both fiction and essay by C.S. Lewis fail to recognize in his classic The Chronicles of Narnia a Jesus that appears to be an inclusivist if not a universalist.

At one point near the end of The Last Battle a man is brought before the Jesus character, a lion named Aslan for judgment. The man, Emeth, taught by his parents has worshipped the false god Tash all his life. Brought before Aslan the man suddenly realize he has been worshipping the wrong god. Emeth falls on his face and prepares for his own destruction. Emeth himself relates the encounter:

"He touched my forehead … and said, Son, thou art welcome. But I said, Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me.” … Then I said, “Lord, is it then true … that thou and Tash are one?” The Lion growled…. “It is false.” I said, … “I have been seeking Tash all my days.” “Beloved,” said the Glorious One, “unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek.”
{C. S. Lewis, The Last Battle (New York: HarperCollins, 1956/ 1984), 186–187}

Lewis may have hit the nail on the head. But now that they see it, many an evangelical will rip Chronicles out of their children's library. While I'm not yet there, certainly there is biblical evidence pointing in that direction (as well as the other). And C.S. Lewis was a widely appreciated Christian apologist of the 20th century.
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Old 06-13-2016, 01:56 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,425,536 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Still not sure I am at your position, Eusebius. But it is interesting to me that evangelicals who frequently praise both fiction and essay by C.S. Lewis fail to recognize in his classic The Chronicles of Narnia a Jesus that appears to be an inclusivist if not a universalist.

At one point near the end of The Last Battle a man is brought before the Jesus character, a lion named Aslan for judgment. The man, Emeth, taught by his parents has worshipped the false god Tash all his life. Brought before Aslan the man suddenly realize he has been worshipping the wrong god. Emeth falls on his face and prepares for his own destruction. Emeth himself relates the encounter:

"He touched my forehead … and said, Son, thou art welcome. But I said, Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me.” … Then I said, “Lord, is it then true … that thou and Tash are one?” The Lion growled…. “It is false.” I said, … “I have been seeking Tash all my days.” “Beloved,” said the Glorious One, “unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek.”
{C. S. Lewis, The Last Battle (New York: HarperCollins, 1956/ 1984), 186–187}

Lewis may have hit the nail on the head. But now that they see it, many an evangelical will rip Chronicles out of their children's library. While I'm not yet there, certainly there is biblical evidence pointing in that direction (as well as the other). And C.S. Lewis was a widely appreciated Christian apologist of the 20th century.
Lewis loved reading George MacDonald's writings. In fact, it was due to MacDonald's "Phantastes" that Lewis made his exodus out of atheism. I am not sure if Lewis fully embraced God saving all as MacDonald had.

MacDonald and Lewis Carroll (who wrote Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Look Glass to name a few) were good friends. Carroll did believe God will save all mankind.

It just seems to me the most logical and loving thing for God to save all. After all, if He saved me, why would He not save all?
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Old 08-12-2016, 05:59 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,147 posts, read 2,741,256 times
Reputation: 245
Exclamation My greatest pleasure

NOTHING gives me greater pleasure than to guide people to the reasons why I see an infinitely different God in the Bible than the one I was taught in the several different eternal punishment churches I attended during years gone by and in the Bible school from which I graduated. I’m 77 years old.

CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tlchrist.info/filealin.htm
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Old 08-12-2016, 11:39 AM
 
14,987 posts, read 7,526,891 times
Reputation: 1968
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
NOTHING gives me greater pleasure than to guide people to the reasons why I see an infinitely different God in the Bible than the one I was taught in the several different eternal punishment churches I attended during years gone by and in the Bible school from which I graduated. I’m 77 years old.

CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
TLC - Download File, "Christ Triumphant", by Thomas Allin
Always good to see you Rodger. That's quite the collection of writings.

P.s. How are you and your wife doing?
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Old 08-12-2016, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,147 posts, read 2,741,256 times
Reputation: 245
Exclamation Highly Recommended!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Always good to see you Rodger. That's quite the collection of writings.

P.s. How are you and your wife doing?

We are rejoicing in the hope of universal salvation Pleroo. Thanks for asking.

See the following great sixteen chapter introductory series to ultimate reconciliation. J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic. Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universal salvation from a solid biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
https://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
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Old 08-12-2016, 07:37 PM
 
17,658 posts, read 8,860,686 times
Reputation: 1485
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
We are rejoicing in the hope of universal salvation Pleroo. Thanks for asking.
We have never been separated, except within our own minds.

It is good to hear from you, Rodger.
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Old 08-13-2016, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,147 posts, read 2,741,256 times
Reputation: 245
Unhappy So sad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
We have never been separated, except within our own minds.

It is good to hear from you, Rodger.
Thanks Jerwade.

I love the following writing.
It's so sad that ETers won't touch it with a ten foot pole
THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE - Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/outcome.html
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Old 08-13-2016, 10:08 AM
 
14,987 posts, read 7,526,891 times
Reputation: 1968
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
Thanks Jerwade.

I love the following writing.
It's so sad that ETers won't touch it with a ten foot pole
THEOUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE - Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/outcome.html
It is sad that so many ET believers are closed off to the possibility that God is not as they have imagined (or been taught to imagine) God to be.
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