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Old 09-26-2016, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,147 posts, read 2,745,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbyrd009 View Post
one could likely list 100 verses pretty easily that suggest UR
I agree.

What may be even more pertinent though are the verses that seem to disprove UR.
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
Bible Threatenings Explained
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Old 09-26-2016, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Post Teaching universal reconciliation

Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
Yes, but none that teach it.

Word meaning, like eternal/aion is based on historical, immediate and broader context not simply what it can mean.

Teaching universal reconciliation
Understanding Universal Salvation Part One

Last edited by rodgertutt; 09-26-2016 at 12:30 PM..
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Old 09-26-2016, 02:43 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,551 posts, read 31,952,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
To me, both ceasing to exist and eternal torment are stupid. Obviously, if I had to pick between the two, I'd pick ceasing to exist. I'm just glad I don't believe in either of them.
What happens if you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit?
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Old 09-26-2016, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Post The unforgivable sin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
What happens if you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit?
THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN
Instead of being forgiven, the sinner will suffer the consequences.
But the consequenses are eonian, not eternal.

I found this link helpful.
The Blasphemy Of The Spirit | Concordant Publishing Concern

The correct literal translation:
Mk 3: 28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the
sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies,
whatsoever they should be blaspheming, 29 yet whoever should be
blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon,
but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin- (Concordant Literal
Translation)




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Old 09-26-2016, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Post the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished,

Up until the time of Augustine, most Christians believed in universal salvation.

Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott

Note God’s wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive

GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be “the god of this eon” (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
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Old 09-26-2016, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN
Instead of being forgiven, the sinner will suffer the consequences.
But the consequenses are eonian, not eternal.
I was asking Katzpur. Thanks. I am already familiar with the "not forgiven, but forgiven anyway" talking points.
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Old 09-26-2016, 03:05 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I was asking Katzpur. Thanks. I am already familiar with the "not forgiven, but forgiven anyway" talking points.
Not forgiven but punished with kolasis eonian during the eons that collectively come to an end.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."

See what other Greek scholars say about it too.
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
Chapter Eleven

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).

Dean Hough wrote “The definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, “In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . .” (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ.
The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ’s cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28).”
Dean Hough
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Old 09-26-2016, 03:25 PM
 
Location: N. Fort Myers, FL
3,348 posts, read 979,567 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
All who are in Christ shall be made alive

And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
well, cool, i always suspected our translation as "eternal" the way we hear it was flawed. Are you using concordant.org? is there one with a more...active lexicon? ty
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Old 09-26-2016, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Post The real gospel (good news)

THE REAL GOSPEL (GOOD NEWS) – BERT BAUMAN
“Our popular English Bible carries the name of an earthly monarch and so bears mute testimony to the influence the English King had over the translators. His directive to ‘do nothing that will disturb the tranquility of the church’, appears to have been taken very seriously by the translators since they often chose to interpret certain Greek words to support then current church doctrine, rather than render a faithful and consistent translation of the original.

I must confess to the admiration I feel for the absolute brilliance of Satan’s cunning and strategy. He has effectively polluted the entire fountain of truth from which Christians drink by causing confusion in the meaning of the single word aion, and its adjective aionios. It does not seem that this single word could be so important as to produce calamitous results, but it is just here that we see the utter genius of our adversary. Perhaps no other word, erroneously translated, could cause such widespread confusion and distortion of the truth. Practically all Christian doctrine is affected: the purposes of God, the nature of God, judgment, man’s destiny, and salvation – to say nothing of its effect upon our concept of the very God we worship and the way we treat one another as Christians, and the world at large.”

The doctrine of eternal torment is not found in the Scripture but the teaching of judgment certainly is. But why judgment? Is it a matter of God’s vengeance only? The scriptures suggest that God’s judgments are desirable but not necessarily enjoyable. It is never pleasant to be judged, but the fruit of judgment is desirable. Correction produces righteousness which yields the fruit of the Spirit. Therefore, while the chastening is unpleasant, the results are a blessing. Out of love for His creatures, God chastens, and corrects. He judges His creatures for their own good.
Did not Jesus teach us to love and do good even to our enemies? And while He admonishes us to be perfect even as our heavenly Father, would our Father be less than we are expected to be? Can love pour out vengeance for its own gratification, or judge to satisfy its own sense of justice? The result of God’s judgments must ultimately be profitable and beneficial to the one being punished, ‘for the Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them’ (Luke 9:56).”
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Old 09-26-2016, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,283 posts, read 20,927,906 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
What happens if you blaspheme against the Holy Spirit?
I believe that this is the one sin which cannot and will not be forgiven, and will result in the individual being eternally separated from God. I have a much more specific view of what it actually means to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit than most of the posters here do, though. Because of how I understand the term, I don't believe there will be many who commit that sin. I believe that except for a very, very few people who have ever lived, all will ultimately receive some degree of God's glory and a place in Heaven. Those who will be called "the Sons of Perdition," and who will spend eternity in "Outer Darkness" are very few.
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