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Now harmonize the ET doctrine with what we are commanded to teach. Which is
Jesus Christ is the saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe. this command and teach. I will be waiting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham
It's already been addressed, but you can't bear to hear it; therefore, it would be pointless to provide even more Scripture that clearly debunks your one-verse doctrine. So, as to your doctrine, it has no place in me. You'll just have to find someone else who wants their ears tickled. I'm sure there are many out there.
That you see it as a one verse doctrine tells me how little of the bible you actually know. As Jer pointed out there are many more that could be shown but just as you refuse to harmonize your ET doctrine with Jesus Christ being the saviour of ALL men it would do no good to show you them.
If your happy teaching another doctrine, one that teaching God misses his mark ( sins) then by all means continue but you do so now in the knowledge that you teach God sins.
Actually, there are 150-220 verses in the Scriptures which speak to that of all mankind being Reconciled. However, your lack of understanding has left you with a closed mind that cannot harmonize them with what you believe is the truth. Thus, you preach another gospel, under the guise of eternal damnation that conceals or hides the true nature of God.
The sad thing for me here brother is that those who hold to these strange doctrines won't even look into the scriptures that teach the salvation of all just as we are commanded to teach. They run scared of questioning God, failing to realize that it is only those who wrestle with God are those who have their names changed.
Actually, there are 150-220 verses in the Scriptures which speak to that of all mankind being Reconciled. However, your lack of understanding has left you with a closed mind that cannot harmonize them with what you believe is the truth. Thus, you preach another gospel, under the guise of eternal damnation that conceals or hides the true nature of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma
The sad thing for me here brother is that those who hold to these strange doctrines won't even look into the scriptures that teach the salvation of all just as we are commanded to teach. They run scared of questioning God, failing to realize that it is only those who wrestle with God are those who have their names changed.
Sooner or later everyone will go to heaven.
A COMMON ARGUMENT ADDRESSED
Until the time of Augustine most Christians believed in the salvation of everyone.
Dr. Edwin Abbott, headmaster of the City of London School, wrote in his Cambridge Sermons -
QUOTE: "An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive. ." Death is destroyed when ALL have been made alive, IN CHRIST."
-- Dr. Edwin Abbott
Response to Joseph Prince
Note God’s wording
In Christ all shall be made alive
not
All who are in Christ shall be made alive
THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED
GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be “the god of this eon” (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
Not sure I understand the topic of this thread?
Surely if people like Hitler and Bin Laden went to heaven it'd be a case of "oops there goes the neighbourhood", so I can't see it happening at all..
Not sure I understand the topic of this thread?
Surely if people like Hitler and Bin Laden went to heaven it'd be a case of "oops there goes the neighbourhood", so I can't see it happening at all..
Can you see the possibility of Bin Laden or Hitler realizing how bad for themselves ideas, attitudes and actions were?
Not sure I understand the topic of this thread?
Surely if people like Hitler and Bin Laden went to heaven it'd be a case of "oops there goes the neighbourhood", so I can't see it happening at all..
You really thing the other inhabitants of Heaven at the end of the ages will go "oops there goes the neighbourhood" after knowing Bin Laden and Hitler just went through "eonian/agelong chastisement/pruning/correction"? Do you really think such villains will not be able to change a few 100 to a few million years of God's divine chastisement?
sooner or later everyone will go to heaven.
A common argument addressed
until the time of augustine most christians believed in the salvation of everyone. dr. Edwin abbott, headmaster of the city of london school, wrote in his cambridge sermons -
quote: "an argument was introduced by augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as scripture states they will (1 cor. 10:11; heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as paul teaches at 1 cor. 15:26: "the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (which must refer to the lake of fire which is the second death, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "for as in adam all are dying, even so in christ all shall be made alive. ." death is destroyed when all have been made alive, in christ."
-- dr. Edwin abbott
response to joseph prince
note god’s wording
in christ all shall be made alive
not
all who are in christ shall be made alive
the ages collectively come to an end with everyone saved
god’s plan for the ages of time
"during the present wicked eon (gal.1:4), sin reigns, satan who is said to be “the god of this eon” (2 cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, god is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian god. In due time he will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (rom.8;18-23)."
god’s plan for the ages of time
the eons of the bible with concordance the eons of the bible with concordance, god’s purpose of the eons.
Not according to Irenaeus. Irenaeus lived ca. A.D.125-202 which was well before the time of Augustine. Irenaeus wrote Against Heresies around A.D. 175-185. In it he writes the following.
Chapter X.-Unity of the Faith of the Church Throughout the Whole World.
1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father "to gather all things in one," and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, "every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess" to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send "spiritual wickednesses," and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. [Bolded mine]
Irenaeus clarifies his statement of everlasting fire in book four of Against Heresies. In chapter 4, section 2, he writes,
2. For as, in the New Testament, that faith of men [to be placed] in God has been increased, receiving in addition [to what was already revealed] the Son of God, that man too might be a partaker of God; so is also our walk in life required to be more circumspect, when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous-language: thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire," these shall be damned for ever; and to whomsoever He shall say, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity," these do receive the kingdom for ever, and make constant advance in it; since there is one and the same God the Father, and His Word, who has been always present with the human race, by means indeed of various dispensations, and has wrought out many things, and saved from the beginning those who are saved, (for these are they who love God, and follow the Word of God according to the class to which they belong, ) and has judged those who are judged, that is, those who forget God, and are blasphemous, and transgressors of His word. [Bolded mine]
Irenaeus states that the belief of the church, received from the apostles, is that the punishment is everlasting and not merely temporal.
The Greek word for temporal is πρόσκαιρος - proskairos and refers to things that are temporary, transitory, lasting only for a time. This is in contrast with things which are permanent, eternal. Irenaeus stated that the belief of the church (his words don't imply a minority of believers) during his time (before the time of Augustine), is that the punishment is not temporal, but is eternal.
[LEFT]There's little or no good proof that Irenaeus held the majority opinion. Just for old time sake, I'll pull a rogdertutt and list a bunch of stuff from Tentmaker! But its all based on quotes.
Early Church Father Quotes about the number of UR believers:
The mass of men (Christians) say there is to be an end to punishment and to those who are punished.—St. Basil the Great
There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments. -- Augustine (354-430 A.D.)
I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures. --St. Jerome[/LEFT]
Early Church Father Quotes about UR:
And God showed great kindness to man, in this, that He did not suffer him to continue being in sin forever; but as it were, by a kind of banishement, cast him out of paradise in order that, having punishment expiated within an appointed time, and having been disciplined, he should afterwards be recalled...just as a vessel, when one being fashioned it has some flaw, is remoulded or remade that it may become new and entire; so also it happens to man by death. For he is broken up by force, that in the resurrection he may be found whole; I mean spotless, righteous and immortal. --Theophilus of Antioch (168 A.D.)
[LEFT]
These, if they will, may go Christ's way, but if not let them go their way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice. --Gregory of Nazianzeu, Bishop of Constantinople. (330 to 390 A.D.) Oracles 39:19
In the end and consummation of the Universe all are to be restored into their original harmonious state, and we all shall be made one body and be united once more into a perfect man and the prayer of our Savior shall be fulfilled that all may be one. --St. Jerome, 331-420
The wicked who have committed evil the whole period of their lives shall be punished till they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God, and to regard Him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of His grace. --Theodore of Mopsuestia, 350-428
Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons (apeirou aionas) in Tartarus. Very properly, the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aionion period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon. --Olnmpiodorus (AD 550)
Wherefore, that at the same time liberty of free-will should be left to nature and yet the evil be purged away, the wisdom of God discovered this plan; to suffer man to do what he would, that having tasted the evil which he desired, and learning by experience for what wretchedness he had bartered away the blessings he had, he might of his own will hasten back with desire to the first blessedness ...either being purged in this life through prayer and discipline, or after his departure hence through the furnace of cleansing fire.--Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.)
That in the world to come, those who have done evil all their life long, will be made worthy of the sweetness of the Divine bounty. For never would Christ have said, "You will never get out until you have paid the last penny" unless it were possible for us to get cleansed when we paid the debt. --Peter Chrysologus, 435
"In the end or consummation of things, all shall be restored to their original state, and be again united in one body. We cannot be ignorant that Christ's blood benefited the angels and those who are in hell; though we know not the manner in which it produced such effects. The apostate angels shall become such as they were created; and man, who has been cast out of paradise, shall be restored thither again. And this shall be accomplished in such a way, that all shall be united together by mutual charity, so that the members will delight in each other, and rejoice in each other's promotion. The apostate angels, and the prince of this world, though now ungovernable, plunging themselves into the depths of sin, shall, in the end, embrace the happy dominion of Christ and His saints." – COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT – Jerome (347-420 A.D.)
Our Lord is the One who delivers man [all men], and who heals the inventor of evil himself. -- Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church
Our Lord descends, and was shut up in the eternal bars, in order that He might set free all who had been shut up... The Lord descended to the place of punishment and torment, in which was the rich man, in order to liberate the prisoners. --Jerome
In the liberation of all no one remains a captive! At the time of the Lord's passion the devil alone was injured by losing all the of the captives he was keeping. --Didymus, 370 AD
While the devil imagined that he got a hold of Christ, he really lost all of those he was keeping. --St. Chrysostom, 398 AD
Mankind, being reclaimed from their sins, are to be subjected to Christ in he fullness of the dispensation instituted for the salvation of all. –Didymus the Blind
In the present life God is in all, for His nature is without limits, but he is not all in all. But in the coming life, when mortality is at an end and immortality granted, and sin has no longer any place, God will be all in all. For the Lord, who loves man, punishes medicinally, that He may check the course of impeity. --Theodoret the Blessed, 387-458
..that that's just a few without even using Origen or even Clement of Alexandria
[/LEFT]
And the point is that it was well before Augustine that SOME of the developing clergy were developing a viewpoint that would tend to strengthen their control of the church. So Augustine was just mistaken about this as with SO much more.
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A common argument addressed
But its all based on quotes.