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Salvation applies to all of us or it doesn't exist. God is no respecter of persons. Jesus is the Savior of the entire world. Salvation is NOT an offer. It is an accomplished fact. It is FINISHED!
The book of Romans is the quintessential book on God's sovereignty over all, God's choosing us in his own timing, the fact that he will save all, but not all in the same way or even all in the same eon. That is what fundamentalist Christians cannot grasp. This does not mean there will be no judgement, or no weeping and gnashing of teeth. But it does mean that God is not a sadistic psychopath.
Death in Adam, Life in Christ TRY TO ABSORB THIS PORTION OF SCRIPTURE!
12Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18Therefore, as one trespassf led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousnessg leads to justification and life for all men. 19For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. 20Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
You do not understand Universalist believers at all.
Not for lack of opportunity, but for lack of interest in what is actually said, because it is in opposition to his position. "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up!"
You do not understand Universalist believers at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift
Not for lack of opportunity, but for lack of interest in what is actually said, because it is in opposition to his position. "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up!"
Amen! There are none so blind as those who will not see.
I am 78 years old.
My inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering than all the other sufferings of my life combined.
That is why writings like the following are such a great help to me!
I am 78 years old.
My inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering than all the other sufferings of my life combined.
That is why writings like the following are such a great help to me!
The following is my opinion as someone who does not believe in universal salvation. It is an explanation of how I, personally, cope with or view the ideas/concerns of the above post.
No matter how much the suffering of the world may upset us, only God can save. We can't save anyone on our own and sometimes people we love won't be saved no matter how fantastic a witness one may be to them over the years.
It can be very distressing when it happens. But ultimately it is not unfair.
Do we not all deserve to suffer if judged on our own merits? Do we not all sin and fall short of the glory of God? There is none righteous, no, not one.
To me, there's peace in that. I know I am a sinner. I know I am flawed and problematic and sinful and fail every day. Therefore, to me it is a source of serenity to know that God knows that, He knows all my flaws and failings every moment of my life, and still chose to offer salvation to me and countless other people just like me. What could be more joyous and unmerited?
I find peace in just trusting God and His promises. He made this earth, He breathed life into us and offered us eternal salvation. Sometimes when something is distressing, I find it peaceful to just give it up to God and remind myself that He is just and righteous and He is in control. He does not make mistakes and He knows far better than any of us what He's doing and why.
ARMINIAN BELIEF VERSUS CALVINIST BELIEF VERSUS UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEF
ARMINIAN BELIEF - It's as if God says
“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my Son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my Son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will either annihilate you, or sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment.”
Christ's apparent mission: To save from annihilation or eternal torment only those who are lucky enough to hear about Jesus before they die, and also have enough good sense to properly cooperate with Him before they die.
CALVINIST BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Since there is nothing you can do about it because you are totally depraved and you are not one of the elect, it is obvious that I created most of you for the purpose of either annihilating you or letting you suffer eternal torment. However, I am going to unconditionally choose a few of you to go to heaven where you will be happy forever."
Christ's apparent mission: To let everyone be annihilated, or suffer eternal torment except the unconditionally elected few that He rescues by His irresistible grace.
UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION BELIEF (mine) – God says
“Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, I am going to save all of you from everything from which you need to be saved, including your stubborn will.”
Christ's scriptural mission: 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world' (1John 4:14).
I worship a Jesus Who will be completely successful in accomplishing the reason why His Father sent Him.
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
THE AGES COLLECTIVELY COME TO AN END WITH EVERYONE SAVED
GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
"During the present wicked eon (Gal.1:4), Sin reigns, Satan who is said to be “the god of this eon” (2 Cor.4:4) blinds and deceives mankind, and death swallows up the race (1 Cor.15:22). But notwithstanding, God is over all and is in supreme control. He is the eonian God. In due time He will deliver the entire creation and bring good out of all the suffering mankind is called upon to endure (Rom.8;18-23)."
Universalism means you don't need faith in Christ to be saved, you are saved anyway.
This is an anti-Christ message that "you don't need to believe in Jesus Christ". Whether we are saved will be in accordance to what is specified in the New Covenant. Universalism definitely puts you into the risk endeavored by Satan himself. "You don't need to believe in Christ to be saved" will be an violation of the very Covenant which will save you.
The only belief which won't expose you to any risk is to believe that hell exist, then leave the justification to God instead of putting a pre-requisite that "I won't believe God until God explains to me why hell exists". God's decision may go beyond your intelligence to comprehend. If you think that you should have the equal intelligence and equal scope of consideration as God does, you are putting your life at risk.
The Tree of Knowledge is for you to think that your eyes are opened and can judge like God does. The same day you choose to eat of it, the same day you shall surely die.
To put it another way, you are a human so you can be mistaken. If your belief (i.e., universalism) is a mistake, you become a murderer by openly leading others to believe so to be condemned to hell. I am a human too, I can be in mistake. If I am mistaken, which means hell doesn't exist as said, then no hell exists. I won't become a murderer this way even when I am mistaken. My stance possesses no risk to others as well as myself. Plus that my stance sticks to Christianity all the times from the very beginning. On the other hand if you are correct, it puts Christians in majority in the history of Christianity in a wrong position regarding to what salvation might be.
Salvation applies to all of us or it doesn't exist. God is no respecter of persons. Jesus is the Savior of the entire world. Salvation is NOT an offer. It is an accomplished fact. It is FINISHED!
Yes, even us atheists can get in on it. It looks to me like there are people who haven't learned to trust with all of their hearts and minds. Trust that he will come for you no matter who tells you different. If you tell me he doesn't want me enough to come get me then I guess I will call that fair. After all that it was I was afraid of; that I wouldn't be judged fairly. I'm sure I will be. Be I saved or be I damned it will be 100 % on Jesus. It never was in my hands.
Yes, even us atheists can get in on it. It looks to me like there are people who haven't learned to trust with all of their hearts and minds. Trust that he will come for you no matter who tells you different. If you tell me he doesn't want me enough to come get me then I guess I will call that fair. After all that it was I was afraid of; that I wouldn't be judged fairly. I'm sure I will be. Be I saved or be I damned it will be 100 % on Jesus. It never was in my hands.
Hi there, I'm a bit confused, could you explain how you are an atheist and 100% on Jesus? Just trying to understand your post, thanks.
Also, to you, how does the song cause you to think about Jesus? Given the lyrics, public comments etc., saying nothing about Jesus, I am just curious of your own interpretation.
Hi there, I'm a bit confused, could you explain how you are an atheist and 100% on Jesus? Just trying to understand your post, thanks.
Also, to you, how does the song cause you to think about Jesus? Given the lyrics, public comments etc., saying nothing about Jesus, I am just curious of your own interpretation.
Quid pro quo: Is what I said Biblical or not?
To answer your question, I can go between belief and disbelief because I have personal testimony to draw off of as well as knowledge of what caused that testimony. Which one is correct? This forum stated we had to assume there was a God for sake of argument. I don't mind the word God. It's religion using people I object too.
Universalism means you don't need faith in Christ to be saved, you are saved anyway.
This is an anti-Christ message that "you don't need to believe in Jesus Christ". Whether we are saved will be in accordance to what is specified in the New Covenant. Universalism definitely puts you into the risk endeavored by Satan himself. "You don't need to believe in Christ to be saved" will be an violation of the very Covenant which will save you.
The only belief which won't expose you to any risk is to believe that hell exist, then leave the justification to God instead of putting a pre-requisite that "I won't believe God until God explains to me why hell exists". God's decision may go beyond your intelligence to comprehend. If you think that you should have the equal intelligence and equal scope of consideration as God does, you are putting your life at risk.
The Tree of Knowledge is for you to think that your eyes are opened and can judge like God does. The same day you choose to eat of it, the same day you shall surely die.
To put it another way, you are a human so you can be mistaken. If your belief (i.e., universalism) is a mistake, you become a murderer by openly leading others to believe so to be condemned to hell. I am a human too, I can be in mistake. If I am mistaken, which means hell doesn't exist as said, then no hell exists. I won't become a murderer this way even when I am mistaken. My stance possesses no risk to others as well as myself. Plus that my stance sticks to Christianity all the times from the very beginning. On the other hand if you are correct, it puts Christians in majority in the history of Christianity in a wrong position regarding to what salvation might be.
This only shows you know nothing about Christian Universal Reconcilation and/or Christian Universalism. You are wrong from very first line. Belief in Christ is a requirement in most forms of it (maybe not for Unitarian Universalism but that's very different) and it will happen at some point in eternity for everyone...but since I don't have time to get in a long debate today, I'll let Roger finish you off if he wants.
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Salvation applies to all of us or it doesn't exist. God is no respecter of persons. Jesus is the Savior of the entire world. Salvation is NOT an offer. It is an accomplished fact. It is FINISHED!
On the same subject
Be I saved or be I damned it will be 100 % on Jesus. It never was in my hands.