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Old 04-14-2016, 12:23 AM
 
37,502 posts, read 25,238,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Now, about those questions, why no answer?
Your questions were answered but you do not like the answers. You refuse to see anything but your bigoted perspective from your privileged American lifestyle. Your inability or unwillingness to even contemplate the differences that dominate in other cultures, cultural backwaters, and uncivilized sh*tholes reveals whatever sickness is driving your obsession.
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Old 04-14-2016, 01:00 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 5,733,712 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle144 View Post
Why are you asking others to do the work for you? There is plenty about her on youtube, even documentaries. Go there and do your own homework. For pete's sake, try to stay away from the haters' videos, you might learn something from a different point of view for a change
Because I have done the work, and other than fanboys and girls, there is nothing factual relating to any reason why the three issues I ask about could be excused.

You know, just because a documentary shows her in a bad light, does not make that documentary inaccurate. Just like my questions are not a misrepresentation of reality, just what the fans of Teresa of Calcutta will deflect, but not answer.

So, why did you deflect, once again? Can't answer them, can you?
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Old 04-14-2016, 01:11 AM
 
20,187 posts, read 12,829,183 times
Reputation: 5420
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Because I have done the work, and other than fanboys and girls, there is nothing factual relating to any reason why the three issues I ask about could be excused.

You know, just because a documentary shows her in a bad light, does not make that documentary inaccurate. Just like my questions are not a misrepresentation of reality, just what the fans of Teresa of Calcutta will deflect, but not answer.

So, why did you deflect, once again? Can't answer them, can you?
No, not for you, that is why I say Moderator cut: bleep . No answer will be sufficient.

Last edited by mensaguy; 04-14-2016 at 05:26 AM.. Reason: Don't call people trolls.
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Old 04-14-2016, 02:16 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 5,733,712 times
Reputation: 4508
Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle144 View Post
[/b]

No, not for you, that is why I say Moderator cut: bleep . No answer will be sufficient.
Actually, if you can answer the questions, you might understand my position. Avoiding answering three legitimate, simple questions says that your position is just not that strong.

Last edited by mensaguy; 04-14-2016 at 05:27 AM.. Reason: Quoted post edited
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Old 04-14-2016, 03:23 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,587 posts, read 5,117,096 times
Reputation: 3916
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Once again, deflection, and my three simple questions are not answered.

Will the truth destroy the image you and others have so much that it is not dared to be spoken?
No one has any knowledge of missing money. One of those links I provided told of a British journalist's inquiry, but nothing was uncovered to prompt charges.

Sterile needles aren't always available in other nations. I have a friend and former pastor who was a missionary to Zambia. He told me that latex gloves were washed and hung on clothes lines that ran from hospital windows. Gloves weren't discarded until they couldn't be put on anymore. In addition he said there were generally lines six blocks long waiting to see physicians. Frequently on Thursday afternoons they would tell people to go home and come back on Monday----the hospital had no more medicine.

So let me tell you how I fit into your demonizing of folks who attempt to do what they can with what they have. My pastor friend told my wife and I that the medical school in Zambia had very few medical books. Students had to borrow books to read and most of their learning was from lecture and observation. So my wife, who worked as an administrator in a hospital, started asking doctors and the hospital for used medical books that were about to be discarded. We probably filled eight to ten good sized cardboard boxes with old medical books---some had copyrights from the fifties and sixties. Along with some other folks we shipped them to Atlanta from Kentucky, where they were loaded on a ship and spent nearly six weeks in transit to Zambia.

My wife and I knew those books were old and outdated, that better updated textbooks were in existence, but we sent what we could get a hold of. My friend said the students at the medical school were jumping for joy. But we provided only what we could get a hold of---did we commit an evil act? Would those students be better off with no knowledge rather than outdated knowledges? Probably so in certain cases, but we were equally aware that no one was going to give them Mayo Clinic textbooks.

So it was with MT. She did what she could with what she had---for the vast majority of her life. It was only in the last couple of decades that she came into mountains of money, and her network had grown far beyond the ability of what had been an 18 year old visionary ever imagined. She wasn't controlling the money nor overseeing the work of those in far flung institutions under her wing. Like anything there comes a point in time when some things grow beyond our ability to control.

Why can't you answer my question? If MT was so very evil why aren't you and millions of other people clamoring to have all the 4000 different hospices, care centers, and shelters closed. Wouldn't that be the responsible thing to do--if you know they are all harming those in them?

I think you have little experience with life in other nations and are completely devoid of understanding how far from western civilization ideas of sanitary methods are in those countries. In Japan, where I lived many moons ago. Human manure is used to fertilize rice and wheat fields. It was normal. As Americans we were told not to eat any bread or rice without a pre-approved label on it--and preferably to shop at the military commissary.

In the same way fundamentalist religionists try to bring 2000 year old texts into the 21st century, you are opting to put 21st century hygienics expectations back into a country where the majority of people are still living in the middle of the twentieth century.

Frankly I'm incredulous that you can't get that picture. All your polemics do is highlight just how deeply troubled you are by religion that you will go to any length to make it look bad---not even your fellow agnostics fit into that narrow mold. You might see about getting some professional help---seriously---if a dead woman's legacy has you so out of sorts.

You've gotten a hold of a tar baby and now you not only can't let go, you're thrashing about and becoming more entangled in your own obsessiveness with a dead woman.
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Old 04-14-2016, 09:16 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 5,733,712 times
Reputation: 4508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
No one has any knowledge of missing money. One of those links I provided told of a British journalist's inquiry, but nothing was uncovered to prompt charges.
The issue is not that the money was 'missing', which no one claims, but that it was used for purposes other than the warehouses for the dying. There was lots of money available.

Quote:
Sterile needles aren't always available in other nations. I have a friend and former pastor who was a missionary to Zambia. He told me that latex gloves were washed and hung on clothes lines that ran from hospital windows. Gloves weren't discarded until they couldn't be put on anymore. In addition he said there were generally lines six blocks long waiting to see physicians. Frequently on Thursday afternoons they would tell people to go home and come back on Monday----the hospital had no more medicine.
India actually has a well developed medical supply industry, and in fact exports some. I have a cousin, a medical doctor, who has a company importing such supplies from India for resale. Besides, believe it or not, Calcutta has been a major center for years, and it is very easy to import those items not made in India.

Medical Equipment | Hospital Supplies | Hospital Medical Supplies | Manufacturer | Suppliers | Surgical Instruments | Narang Medical Limited | India

#1 Medical Equipment Manufacturer & Hospital Supplies Company | India

There are many more. My cousin has been importing such medical equipment for decades... this is not new. Your argument is moot.

Quote:
So it was with MT. She did what she could with what she had---for the vast majority of her life. It was only in the last couple of decades that she came into mountains of money, and her network had grown far beyond the ability of what had been an 18 year old visionary ever imagined. She wasn't controlling the money nor overseeing the work of those in far flung institutions under her wing. Like anything there comes a point in time when some things grow beyond our ability to control.
Yet somehow she was able to direct millions towards building convents for her order. Amazing how that worked, isn't it

Quote:
Why can't you answer my question? If MT was so very evil why aren't you and millions of other people clamoring to have all the 4000 different hospices, care centers, and shelters closed. Wouldn't that be the responsible thing to do--if you know they are all harming those in them?
Deflection, as it does not address my questions.

Quote:
I think you have little experience with life in other nations and are completely devoid of understanding how far from western civilization ideas of sanitary methods are in those countries. In Japan, where I lived many moons ago. Human manure is used to fertilize rice and wheat fields. It was normal. As Americans we were told not to eat any bread or rice without a pre-approved label on it--and preferably to shop at the military commissary.
I have been in over 20 different countries outside of North America and Europe.

Quote:
In the same way fundamentalist religionists try to bring 2000 year old texts into the 21st century, you are opting to put 21st century hygienics expectations back into a country where the majority of people are still living in the middle of the twentieth century.
Sterilization of needles has been standard medical practice since the late 1800's. Autoclaves have been around since 1879. People in third world countries are not as backward as you think.

Quote:
Frankly I'm incredulous that you can't get that picture. All your polemics do is highlight just how deeply troubled you are by religion that you will go to any length to make it look bad---not even your fellow agnostics fit into that narrow mold. You might see about getting some professional help---seriously---if a dead woman's legacy has you so out of sorts.

You've gotten a hold of a tar baby and now you not only can't let go, you're thrashing about and becoming more entangled in your own obsessiveness with a dead woman.
Just because a person is dead does not make them immune to legitimate criticism. You are so in love with her image, you refuse to see the horrible harm she not only caused, but propagated under false pretenses.

You attempted to sort of answer the questions, I give you credit for that. It doesn't excuse MT's actions though.
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Old 04-14-2016, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 180,389 times
Reputation: 57
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"Of course I convert. I convert you to be a better Hindu or a better Muslim or a better Protestant. Once you've found God, it's up to you to decide how to worship him" (Mother Teresa Touched Other Faiths, Associated Press, 9/7/97).

"We never try to convert those who receive [aid from Missionaries of Charity] to Christianity but in our work we bear witness to the love of God's presence and if Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, or agnostics become for this better men-- simply better --we will be satisfied. It matters to the individual what church he belongs to. If that individual thinks and believes that this is the only way to God for her or him, this is the way God comes into their life-- his life. If he does not know any other way and if he has no doubt so that he does not need to search then this is his way to salvation."

The April 7-13, 1990, issue of Radio Times tells the story of Mother Teresa sheltering an old Hindu priest. "She nursed him with her own hands and helped him to die reconciled with his own gods."

FYI: Christian missionaries are not supposed to be helping pagans die reconciled to their own gods. They're supposed to be helping pagans die reconciled to the one true God by means of Christ's crucifixion (John 3:14-18). Nor are they supposed to be converting pagans to become better Hindus or better Muslims. They're supposed to be converting pagans to become better Christians. (Matt 28:18-20)

Teresa referred to Christ as "the absent one". The reason being that during virtually the entire five decades she was in India, Teresa felt not the slightest glimmer of the Lord's presence. Duh. Had she complied with his wishes that wouldn't have happened.

†. Matt 28:18-20 . .Then Jesus approached and said to them: All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit; teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.

Was Christ with Teresa always? No, according to Teresa's private letters, he wasn't even with her part way.

Father Neuner, one of Teresa's spiritual advisors commented: "Why had God abandoned her totally? She had to lead the Sisters, initiate them into the love of God and into a life of prayer, which had been wiped out in her own life as she lived in total emptiness. Had she become a shameful hypocrite who spoke to others about the divine mysteries which had totally vanished from her own heart?"

All evidence points to the obvious conclusion that Teresa was the most convincing Christian pretense the twentieth century ever produced; and if she was a charlatan, who else is playing church inside the Church?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Old 04-14-2016, 12:39 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,587 posts, read 5,117,096 times
Reputation: 3916
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyawehNyoh View Post
-
"Of course I convert. I convert you to be a better Hindu or a better Muslim or a better Protestant. Once you've found God, it's up to you to decide how to worship him" (Mother Teresa Touched Other Faiths, Associated Press, 9/7/97).

"We never try to convert those who receive [aid from Missionaries of Charity] to Christianity but in our work we bear witness to the love of God's presence and if Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, or agnostics become for this better men-- simply better --we will be satisfied. It matters to the individual what church he belongs to. If that individual thinks and believes that this is the only way to God for her or him, this is the way God comes into their life-- his life. If he does not know any other way and if he has no doubt so that he does not need to search then this is his way to salvation."

The April 7-13, 1990, issue of Radio Times tells the story of Mother Teresa sheltering an old Hindu priest. "She nursed him with her own hands and helped him to die reconciled with his own gods."

FYI: Christian missionaries are not supposed to be helping pagans die reconciled to their own gods. They're supposed to be helping pagans die reconciled to the one true God by means of Christ's crucifixion (John 3:14-18). Nor are they supposed to be converting pagans to become better Hindus or better Muslims. They're supposed to be converting pagans to become better Christians. (Matt 28:18-20)

Teresa referred to Christ as "the absent one". The reason being that during virtually the entire five decades she was in India, Teresa felt not the slightest glimmer of the Lord's presence. Duh. Had she complied with his wishes that wouldn't have happened.

†. Matt 28:18-20 . .Then Jesus approached and said to them: All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit; teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.

Was Christ with Teresa always? No, according to Teresa's private letters, he wasn't even with her part way.

Father Neuner, one of Teresa's spiritual advisors commented: "Why had God abandoned her totally? She had to lead the Sisters, initiate them into the love of God and into a life of prayer, which had been wiped out in her own life as she lived in total emptiness. Had she become a shameful hypocrite who spoke to others about the divine mysteries which had totally vanished from her own heart?"

All evidence points to the obvious conclusion that Teresa was the most convincing Christian pretense the twentieth century ever produced; and if she was a charlatan, who else is playing church inside the Church?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
In other words, you prefer christians who talk orthodox views as opposed to those who work the works of Jesus.

We know we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. (I John 2:3-6—NIV)

My guess is, "believe in Jesus and forget the rest" is your kind of faith.

Last edited by Wardendresden; 04-14-2016 at 12:55 PM..
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Old 04-14-2016, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,587 posts, read 5,117,096 times
Reputation: 3916
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
The issue is not that the money was 'missing', which no one claims, but that it was used for purposes other than the warehouses for the dying. There was lots of money available.



India actually has a well developed medical supply industry, and in fact exports some. I have a cousin, a medical doctor, who has a company importing such supplies from India for resale. Besides, believe it or not, Calcutta has been a major center for years, and it is very easy to import those items not made in India.

Medical Equipment | Hospital Supplies | Hospital Medical Supplies | Manufacturer | Suppliers | Surgical Instruments | Narang Medical Limited | India

#1 Medical Equipment Manufacturer & Hospital Supplies Company | India

There are many more. My cousin has been importing such medical equipment for decades... this is not new. Your argument is moot.



Yet somehow she was able to direct millions towards building convents for her order. Amazing how that worked, isn't it



Deflection, as it does not address my questions.



I have been in over 20 different countries outside of North America and Europe.



Sterilization of needles has been standard medical practice since the late 1800's. Autoclaves have been around since 1879. People in third world countries are not as backward as you think.



Just because a person is dead does not make them immune to legitimate criticism. You are so in love with her image, you refuse to see the horrible harm she not only caused, but propagated under false pretenses.

You attempted to sort of answer the questions, I give you credit for that. It doesn't excuse MT's actions though.
You may have been to 20 different countries, but I don't think you spent an extended time in any of them. In Japan we lived in "private rental" housing, then miles from the airbase, surrounded by Japanese farmers, with a concrete block factory across the "street" from us. There really were no streets where we lived, just dirt roads wide enough for a single vehicle to pass. Someone had to pull off the road when two vehicles met. THAT is living among the people. And the "honey" buckets, where the Japanese poured their human waste for storage, were set in the middle of the fields. In the summer, our un-airconditioned home stank so much my mother often couldn't eat.

Third world countries have different cultures, different values, and look at hygiene quite differently from the Americas. Non sterile needles are not uncommon--even here in the U.S.. Despite all our knowledge that is spread all over the media, desperate people still use non sterile needles for their drug of choice. So "choice" is not always a relevant term.

Again, you have not proved it was a widespread problem. Neither have you cited a single instance where Mother Theresa presided over the use of the same.

The burden of proof regarding such things is on the accuser, not the accused needing to prove innocence.

You haven't proved anything, but offered up snippets of "this happened here, and that happened there." That's a long way from a nun being Pol Pot.

And again, anytime someone wants to charge someone else of "evil," I like to ask, "what were you doing to alleviate hunger and nakedness, or provide shelter and health care?' Nothing? That figures--so criticize those who not only made an attempt, no matter how poor, and demonize them into what you yourself really are. And no, I don't excuse myself for doing nothing either. But then I'm not demonizing someone who DID make an effort--and whose efforts are still being carried out today.
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Old 04-14-2016, 01:31 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 5,733,712 times
Reputation: 4508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
You may have been to 20 different countries, but I don't think you spent an extended time in any of them. In Japan we lived in "private rental" housing, then miles from the airbase, surrounded by Japanese farmers, with a concrete block factory across the "street" from us. There really were no streets where we lived, just dirt roads wide enough for a single vehicle to pass. Someone had to pull off the road when two vehicles met. THAT is living among the people. And the "honey" buckets, where the Japanese poured their human waste for storage, were set in the middle of the fields. In the summer, our un-airconditioned home stank so much my mother often couldn't eat.

Third world countries have different cultures, different values, and look at hygiene quite differently from the Americas. Non sterile needles are not uncommon--even here in the U.S.. Despite all our knowledge that is spread all over the media, desperate people still use non sterile needles for their drug of choice. So "choice" is not always a relevant term.

Again, you have not proved it was a widespread problem. Neither have you cited a single instance where Mother Theresa presided over the use of the same.

The burden of proof regarding such things is on the accuser, not the accused needing to prove innocence.

You haven't proved anything, but offered up snippets of "this happened here, and that happened there." That's a long way from a nun being Pol Pot.

And again, anytime someone wants to charge someone else of "evil," I like to ask, "what were you doing to alleviate hunger and nakedness, or provide shelter and health care?' Nothing? That figures--so criticize those who not only made an attempt, no matter how poor, and demonize them into what you yourself really are. And no, I don't excuse myself for doing nothing either. But then I'm not demonizing someone who DID make an effort--and whose efforts are still being carried out today.
Great. We like to diffuse and deflect.

Use of unsterilized needles and the connection to MT:


When Mary Loudon, a volunteer in Calcutta asked one of the Nuns responsible for patient “care” why she was not sterilizing the needles, the nun replied:

"There is no point."

And continued to wash the needle under a cold tap.

Hitchen's documentary tells the same story, and I have linked to the University of Montreal study previously that dwelves into this. Please don't tell me I have not provided the evidence. I have, numerous times.


Quote:
Loudon then tells a story about a fifteen year old boy who went from having a simple kidney problem, and by the time she was writing this, he was dying. The Nuns had refused to give him antibiotics and would not allow him to be taken to the local hospital. He needed operating on and was just being left to die, whilst the delusional Nuns of the order of Mother Theresa prayed for him. The Nuns argued that if they did it for one, they’d have to do it for all of them. Not withstanding the fact that they were running a shack with unsterilized equipment, they also were sitting on millions of dollars; enough to build a top class hospital. The decision not to use that money to help people, was entirely down to religious belief.

People in the care of Mother Theresa, were given no painkillers, treated with dirty implements, given no specialist care, no professional diagnosis, and more often than not, died because of easily curable injuries and disease. They were indoctrinated to believe that if they doubted Mother Theresa, they were doubting God, and would be punished in the afterlife. They died, for the sake of a multi millionaire religious fundamentalist.
From the UofM study:

Quote:
According to the study, the doctors observed a significant lack of hygiene, even unfit conditions and a shortage of actual care, food and painkillers. They say that the problem was not a paucity of funds as the Order of the Missionaries of Charity successfully raised hundreds of millions of dollars. Researchers said that when it came to her own treatment, "she received it in a modern American hospital".
You appear to lack a bit in reading comprehension. I never said I was only in 20 different countries, I said that 20 of them have been outside of North America and Europe. I am well aware of differences.

Now, to bring it back to my questions,
  • So, explain how you can accept the use of unsterilized needles? How do you see beyond that?
  • How can you accept that no palliative care beyond warehousing occurred? How do you see beyond that?
  • How can you accept that the millions raised were used for convents, and not patients? How do you see beyond that?
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