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Old 04-14-2016, 03:29 PM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 182,291 times
Reputation: 57

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
In other words, you prefer christians who talk orthodox views as opposed to those who work the works of Jesus.

We know we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. (I John 2:3-6—NIV).
Teresa's admirers often overlook the fact that she wasn't a layman. Teresa was a Christian missionary; which set her apart from John Q and Jane Doe pew warmers. Had she actually obeyed Christ's commands regarding the works of a Christian missionary, Teresa would have enjoyed his company. But as it was, she complained to spiritual counselors:

"I am told God loves me; and yet the reality of darkness & coldness & emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul."

"Now Father-- since 49 or 50 this terrible sense of loss-- this untold darkness-- this loneliness, this continual longing for God-- which gives me pain deep down in my heart-- Darkness is such that I really do not see neither with my mind nor with my reason-- the place of God in my soul is blank-- There is no God in me-- when the pain of longing is so great-- I just long & long for God-- and then it is that I feel-- He does not want me-- He is not there-- God does not want me"

"The damned of Hell suffer eternal punishment because they experiment with the loss of God. In my own soul, I feel the terrible pain of this loss. I feel that God does not want me, that God is not God; and that He does not really exist."

Teresa referred to Christ as "the absent one". The reason being that during virtually the entire five decades she was in India, Teresa felt not the slightest glimmer of the Lord's presence.

Had she complied with Christ's instructions for Christian missionaries to "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit; teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." Then his promise "I am with you always." would have come true for her.

The very fact that Teresa was abandoned by Christ as an orphan is proof enough that the quality of her missionary work was so far below compliance that Christ couldn't stand to be around her.

When Jesus dispatches Christian missionaries, their orders are not just to heal the sick, but also to preach the kingdom of God (Luke 9:2). Teresa did okay with the healing part of Christ's orders, but she utterly failed to comply with the preaching part. In reality, Teresa was a Devil's missionary rather than Christ's-- a Judas goat assisting countless numbers of pagans on their journey down the wide road to hell.

"Of course I convert. I convert you to be a better Hindu or a better Muslim or a better Protestant. Once you've found God, it's up to you to decide how to worship him" (Mother Teresa Touched Other Faiths, Associated Press, 9/7/97).

"We never try to convert those who receive [aid from Missionaries of Charity] to Christianity but in our work we bear witness to the love of God's presence and if Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, or agnostics become for this better men-- simply better --we will be satisfied. It matters to the individual what church he belongs to. If that individual thinks and believes that this is the only way to God for her or him, this is the way God comes into their life-- his life. If he does not know any other way and if he has no doubt so that he does not need to search then this is his way to salvation."

The April 7-13, 1990, issue of Radio Times tells the story of Mother Teresa sheltering an old Hindu priest. "She nursed him with her own hands and helped him to die reconciled with his own gods."

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Old 04-14-2016, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,674 posts, read 5,162,860 times
Reputation: 3928
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Great. We like to diffuse and deflect.

Use of unsterilized needles and the connection to MT:


When Mary Loudon, a volunteer in Calcutta asked one of the Nuns responsible for patient “care” why she was not sterilizing the needles, the nun replied:

"There is no point."

And continued to wash the needle under a cold tap.

Hitchen's documentary tells the same story, and I have linked to the University of Montreal study previously that dwelves into this. Please don't tell me I have not provided the evidence. I have, numerous times.




From the UofM study:



You appear to lack a bit in reading comprehension. I never said I was only in 20 different countries, I said that 20 of them have been outside of North America and Europe. I am well aware of differences.

Now, to bring it back to my questions,
  • So, explain how you can accept the use of unsterilized needles? How do you see beyond that?
  • How can you accept that no palliative care beyond warehousing occurred? How do you see beyond that?
  • How can you accept that the millions raised were used for convents, and not patients? How do you see beyond that?
How about the view of an atheist who twice spent time at one of MT's shelters:
Quote:

I was baptized, but I consider myself a Catholic by culture and not by belief. Therefore I do not admire and defend Mother Teresa because I think she is a saint, but because I believe she is an incredible human being. On a more practical note, I have volunteered twice with the sisters of the Missionaries of Charity, in Calcutta and in Cuzco. I have therefore been able to experience first hand the work these women do as they follow the example set by Mother Teresa.

Firstly I’d just like to state what might be a simplistic and yet fundamental reason why I find criticism of Mother Teresa extremely hard to hear: who are we, sitting in our office or in the comfort of our home in our cocoon-like world, hiding behind books and computers, to criticize a woman who abandoned everything to spend her life and bring attention to the forgotten of this world? The day someone will lead a similar life to Mother Teresa’s and still criticize the way she acted, then I will truly respect that opinion. But unsurprisingly that day still hasn’t come.

In order to keep succinct on a topic that tends to create endless controversy, I will just address two of the most recurring criticisms of Mother Teresa which both the Canadian study and Hitchens shared: the way she cared for the sick; and her opposition to abortion and contraception. I will say why, in my modest opinion and experience, they are wrong or missing the point entirely.

The way she cared for the sick
The sick and dying do not receive appropriate care, despite the amount of money donated to the charity each year: this has been an ongoing criticism of the Missionaries of Charity. One simple answer: yes they do care for them appropriately and even if they didn’t, to the risk of sounding extremely harsh to some, it’s better than dying on the street.

First thing I was told by the sisters in Calcutta was that if we didn’t agree with the way they proceeded, they understood it and respected it but then we didn’t have to help. And they were completely right. After all, we were only there for a short period of time when it was their everyday life. They couldn’t possibly adapt to everything that volunteers would complain about, using big words like “human decency” or “truly helping the poor,” when in a few weeks they would be running away from the dirt of Calcutta back to the comfort of their home.

Yes it’s true, Mother Teresa was a Catholic and therefore believed that dying wasn’t such a bad thing. Although I do think dying is pretty bad because I don’t believe there’s such a thing as afterlife, I do not think her attitude was wrong given the context she was working in.

Most of the people the sisters care for are physically and mentally handicapped, or very old and very sick. They live in places of the world where it’s hard enough to survive when you are young and healthy. I have seen the sisters do everything they can to make these people’s lives better and I have seen their heart ripped apart when a little girl died one morning in Cuzco, even though they are so strongly convinced that being with God is so much better than being on this planet. Yes, maybe if that little girl had gone to an expensive hospital in America she would have lived longer. But the fact is that she couldn’t go to that hospital, and ultimately she had a far better life than the one she would have had had the sisters left her in the garbage they found her in.

Her opposition to abortion and contraception
Yes, Mother Teresa was adamant and very vocal about this. Although I usually scream loud and clear when I hear any politician questioning what I consider two fundamental rights, I do not hold it against Mother Teresa. In fact, I understand her and see it as a necessary price to pay for all the good she has done to this world. Her fundamental belief is that everyone, absolutely everyone in this world deserves love and care. She cherished every single life on this planet more than anyone ever did, and that’s why she created the Missionaries of Charity: to help and welcome the poorest of the poor, those whose life had not been judged worthy enough to live and who had been rejected by everything and everyone.
A Response To Mother Teresa's Critics

Sorry, your criticisms are from one sitting at a computer not lifting a finger to do even 1/100th of what she did. No wonder everyone considers your opinion nothing but bunk. Her motives can't be questioned, yours are worn on your sleeve.
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Old 04-14-2016, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,674 posts, read 5,162,860 times
Reputation: 3928
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyawehNyoh View Post
Teresa's admirers often overlook the fact that she wasn't a layman. Teresa was a Christian missionary; which set her apart from John Q and Jane Doe pew warmers. Had she actually obeyed Christ's commands regarding the works of a Christian missionary, Teresa would have enjoyed his company. But as it was, she complained to spiritual counselors:

"I am told God loves me; and yet the reality of darkness & coldness & emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul."

"Now Father-- since 49 or 50 this terrible sense of loss-- this untold darkness-- this loneliness, this continual longing for God-- which gives me pain deep down in my heart-- Darkness is such that I really do not see neither with my mind nor with my reason-- the place of God in my soul is blank-- There is no God in me-- when the pain of longing is so great-- I just long & long for God-- and then it is that I feel-- He does not want me-- He is not there-- God does not want me"

"The damned of Hell suffer eternal punishment because they experiment with the loss of God. In my own soul, I feel the terrible pain of this loss. I feel that God does not want me, that God is not God; and that He does not really exist."

Teresa referred to Christ as "the absent one". The reason being that during virtually the entire five decades she was in India, Teresa felt not the slightest glimmer of the Lord's presence.

Had she complied with Christ's instructions for Christian missionaries to "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit; teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." Then his promise "I am with you always." would have come true for her.

The very fact that Teresa was abandoned by Christ as an orphan is proof enough that the quality of her missionary work was so far below compliance that Christ couldn't stand to be around her.

When Jesus dispatches Christian missionaries, their orders are not just to heal the sick, but also to preach the kingdom of God (Luke 9:2). Teresa did okay with the healing part of Christ's orders, but she utterly failed to comply with the preaching part. In reality, Teresa was a Devil's missionary rather than Christ's-- a Judas goat assisting countless numbers of pagans on their journey down the wide road to hell.

"Of course I convert. I convert you to be a better Hindu or a better Muslim or a better Protestant. Once you've found God, it's up to you to decide how to worship him" (Mother Teresa Touched Other Faiths, Associated Press, 9/7/97).

"We never try to convert those who receive [aid from Missionaries of Charity] to Christianity but in our work we bear witness to the love of God's presence and if Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, or agnostics become for this better men-- simply better --we will be satisfied. It matters to the individual what church he belongs to. If that individual thinks and believes that this is the only way to God for her or him, this is the way God comes into their life-- his life. If he does not know any other way and if he has no doubt so that he does not need to search then this is his way to salvation."

The April 7-13, 1990, issue of Radio Times tells the story of Mother Teresa sheltering an old Hindu priest. "She nursed him with her own hands and helped him to die reconciled with his own gods."

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
For you, your christianity consists of saying the sayings of Jesus. For Mother Teresa, it was about DOING the sayings of Jesus. I think she was far closer to His heart than you have ever been or are likely to be with that view.

Incidentally, one of the political parties in India that made accusations against MT, was because they felt she was trying to convert Hindus. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Sort of like Jesus, huh?
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Old 04-14-2016, 06:04 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 5,778,574 times
Reputation: 4509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
How about the view of an atheist who twice spent time at one of MT's shelters:A Response To Mother Teresa's Critics

Sorry, your criticisms are from one sitting at a computer not lifting a finger to do even 1/100th of what she did. No wonder everyone considers your opinion nothing but bunk.
Yes, my contributions to society did not involve warehousing the dying without proper palliative care that could have been extended with the millions that were raised, but spent on convents. I could never act in such a deceptive manner. My atheistic conscious would bother me too much to raise funds under false pretenses, as omission of facts is as much a lie as telling it outright, and much more insidious.

We won't agree, but I hope frauds like MT get called out a lot sooner so we don't have a repetition of false idolatry. You are enthralled in the idea and image of what you think she was, and won't accept that the smoke and the mirrors of a large PR machine bamboozled you, and millions of others.

It's almost like a religion.

Oh wait, it IS a religion that perpetuated that.

Go figure.
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Old 04-14-2016, 07:06 PM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 182,291 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
your christianity consists of saying the sayings of Jesus. For Mother Teresa, it was about DOING the sayings of Jesus.
Had Teresa actually done the sayings of Jesus, he would not have abandoned her.

. John 14:15-18 . .If you love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Counselor, that He may abide with you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

. John 14:23 . .If anyone loves me, he will keep my word; and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Incidentally, one of the political parties in India that made accusations against MT, was because they felt she was trying to convert Hindus.
They were wrong.

"We never try to convert those who receive [aid from Missionaries of Charity] to Christianity but in our work we bear witness to the love of God's presence and if Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, or agnostics become for this better men-- simply better --we will be satisfied. It matters to the individual what church he belongs to. If that individual thinks and believes that this is the only way to God for her or him, this is the way God comes into their life-- his life. If he does not know any other way and if he has no doubt so that he does not need to search then this is his way to salvation."

The April 7-13, 1990, issue of Radio Times tells the story of Mother Teresa sheltering an old Hindu priest. "She nursed him with her own hands and helped him to die reconciled with his own gods."

According to Matt 28:18-20, had Teresa actually been preaching, Christ would never have abandoned her.

One thing that really bothered Teresa was the Lord's perpetual absence. Try as she might, Teresa could not detect even the faintest glimmer of His presence.

"I am told God loves me; and yet the reality of darkness & coldness & emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul."

"The place of God in my soul is blank-- There is no God in me-- when the pain of longing is so great-- I just long & long for God-- and then it is that I feel-- He does not want me-- He is not there-- God does not want me"

"The damned of Hell suffer eternal punishment because they experiment with the loss of God. In my own soul, I feel the terrible pain of this loss. I feel that God does not want me, that God is not God; and that He does not really exist."

Well; according to 2Cor 13:5, the Lord's perpetual absence was due to Teresa's failure to live in faith; and according to John 14:15-18 and John 14:23 his perpetual absence was also due to her failure to keep his word and obey his commandments. Simple as that.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Old 04-14-2016, 09:24 PM
Status: "Rascible." (set 3 hours ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
23,631 posts, read 12,221,969 times
Reputation: 10727
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyawehNyoh View Post
...snip....

Well; according to 2Cor 13:5, the Lord's perpetual absence was due to Teresa's failure to live in faith; and according to John 14:15-18 and John 14:23 his perpetual absence was also due to her failure to keep his word and obey his commandments. Simple as that.

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Simple as insanity.

Which is all that is required to explain a 20th century woman with 2nd century "wisdom."

I'm glad CD keeps its door open to whack-jobs. Keeps things interesting.

Ish.
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Old 04-14-2016, 09:53 PM
 
8,828 posts, read 6,340,904 times
Reputation: 2353
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
No, I'm firmly in the camp of those that refuse to believe in fairy tales, myths and especially lies. The image of Teresa of Calcutta is built on that.

No one apparently has the integrity to honestly answer the three questions I posed, many of them calling themselves christian. Would your jesus do that? Would your jesus deflect? Would your jesus avoid? The stories you say you believe in about your jesus say something different.
Oh please, spare the atheism 101. You need to move beyond that. You are clearly a newbie.
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Old 04-14-2016, 10:51 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 5,778,574 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Oh please, spare the atheism 101. You need to move beyond that. You are clearly a newbie.
Can't or won't answer the questions either, right? Instead, deflecting and attacking the messenger, trying to get away from the message. A true amateur. Or a dishonest fanboy of MT.
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Old 04-15-2016, 12:09 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,674 posts, read 5,162,860 times
Reputation: 3928
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Yes, my contributions to society did not involve warehousing the dying without proper palliative care that could have been extended with the millions that were raised, but spent on convents. I could never act in such a deceptive manner. My atheistic conscious would bother me too much to raise funds under false pretenses, as omission of facts is as much a lie as telling it outright, and much more insidious.

We won't agree, but I hope frauds like MT get called out a lot sooner so we don't have a repetition of false idolatry. You are enthralled in the idea and image of what you think she was, and won't accept that the smoke and the mirrors of a large PR machine bamboozled you, and millions of others.

It's almost like a religion.

Oh wait, it IS a religion that perpetuated that.

Go figure.
Yes, you are the sole messianic figure looking into the hearts of people long dead.

I'm not bamboozled, but you are. Every criticism I find of "Mother Teresa" turns out to be criticism of this facility or that. It is you and Hitchens who have inducted those situations into The heart of MT, angel from hell. One of your own atheist buddies doesn't do that and she was there in Calcutta at one of the centers.

Since YOU are the one who has been trolling on MT (there, I have now called you what this twice begun thread appears as the result of) the burden of proof is on you to prove she, personally, hands on or by direction, is guilty of these horrible third world conditions of care.

You do realize there are a few people out there who like to portray our Abe Lincoln as a racist who simply used slavery to launch a war of attrition on the South, right?

By the way, Jesus lived in a third world country. Those Jewish people separated lepers and plenty of other people to keep them away from healthy people. MT took them in her arms and off the street, into a "warehouse" that was a thousand times better than lying on the street in Calcutta. But good is never good enough for someone demanding perfection.
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Old 04-15-2016, 12:17 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,674 posts, read 5,162,860 times
Reputation: 3928
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyawehNyoh View Post
Had Teresa actually done the sayings of Jesus, he would not have abandoned her.

†. John 14:15-18 . .If you love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Counselor, that He may abide with you forever-- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

†. John 14:23 . .If anyone loves me, he will keep my word; and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.



They were wrong.

"We never try to convert those who receive [aid from Missionaries of Charity] to Christianity but in our work we bear witness to the love of God's presence and if Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, or agnostics become for this better men-- simply better --we will be satisfied. It matters to the individual what church he belongs to. If that individual thinks and believes that this is the only way to God for her or him, this is the way God comes into their life-- his life. If he does not know any other way and if he has no doubt so that he does not need to search then this is his way to salvation."

The April 7-13, 1990, issue of Radio Times tells the story of Mother Teresa sheltering an old Hindu priest. "She nursed him with her own hands and helped him to die reconciled with his own gods."

According to Matt 28:18-20, had Teresa actually been preaching, Christ would never have abandoned her.

One thing that really bothered Teresa was the Lord's perpetual absence. Try as she might, Teresa could not detect even the faintest glimmer of His presence.

"I am told God loves me; and yet the reality of darkness & coldness & emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul."

"The place of God in my soul is blank-- There is no God in me-- when the pain of longing is so great-- I just long & long for God-- and then it is that I feel-- He does not want me-- He is not there-- God does not want me"

"The damned of Hell suffer eternal punishment because they experiment with the loss of God. In my own soul, I feel the terrible pain of this loss. I feel that God does not want me, that God is not God; and that He does not really exist."

Well; according to 2Cor 13:5, the Lord's perpetual absence was due to Teresa's failure to live in faith; and according to John 14:15-18 and John 14:23 his perpetual absence was also due to her failure to keep his word and obey his commandments. Simple as that.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
You like to talk the Lord's battles, Mother Teresa fought them. You are unhappy she didn't badger a dying man into "accepting" Jesus. The one political party in India was opposed to her because they said she did try for deathbed conversions.

It is interesting that cupper criticizes her for being religious, and you criticize her for not being religious in a manner befitting your own religious dogma.

Faith does not exist apart from doubt. If you are 100% sure, then you don't have faith, you have an idol---and God knows you have a lot of company. How about David in that 13th Psalm? He was wavering, too, but like MT he persevered regardless. That makes her faith even more remarkable than what either of us have to offer.

Last edited by Wardendresden; 04-15-2016 at 12:29 AM..
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