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Old 04-16-2016, 08:48 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 5,732,020 times
Reputation: 4508

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
I previously provided a report by an atheist who dismissed their claims as well!! So you have received testimony from supporters, non-supporters, Indians----you are incredibly dense. And no two ways about it you now own the title of troll of the religious thread. Your credibility is completely gone.

And once again, no, I do not think of MT as a saint. She wasn't. And neither was she the demon you are trolling her to be.
And I have provide plenty of evidence, including Hitchen's documentary, that shows the negligence, a term one can use if one wants to be kind, that occurred.

The one who appears to want to be dense is not me. Again, attacking the messenger is not a way to build a discussion point, but a tactic used by those that have nothing else left.
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Old 04-16-2016, 11:58 AM
Status: "Even better than okay" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
51,241 posts, read 50,519,955 times
Reputation: 60114
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
So, explain how you can accept the use of unsterilized needles? How do you see beyond that? How can you accept that no palliative care beyond warehousing occurred? How do you see beyond that? How can you accept that the millions raised were used for convents, and not patients? How do you see beyond that?
You want her to have been something other than what she was. She wasn't a doctor. She wasn't there to bring medical technology to India. She wasn't there to save the world. She was there to comfort the dying, and the poorest of the poor and to bring others into her work.

YES, we get that her work was of no value to you--but that was who she was. I don't see you hopping on a plane for Calcutta with a suitcase full of clean needles, either. That's not who you are either, but no one is criticizing you for not doing that.
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Old 04-16-2016, 01:25 PM
 
1,506 posts, read 921,077 times
Reputation: 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
And I have provide plenty of evidence....
I hope this evidence more substantial than your claim of:

"Mother Theresa is a fraud because she has spent millions of dollars on housing her members"-

Then you ignore the obvious fact that housing 4,000 members globally over a 65 year period costs.... well, millions of dollars.
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Old 04-16-2016, 06:45 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 5,732,020 times
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Not my article, but it addresses much of what I have said, substantiated and added additional information.

In Response To A Nun's Defense of The Monster Mother Teresa - Godless Mom

Yes, it is an opinion piece, but notice that it cites original sources. BTW, I had forgot about the investigation that the German magazine Stern did on MT. They documented a LOT of dirt. The most damning?

"Stern was able to confirm in that very same report that, in fact, only 7% of the organization’s wealth (according to English authorities) was used for charity."


Corrupt? Well, she did write a letter of recommendation to Judge Ito upon the sentencing to the convicted ********* Keating, who had donated money to her group.
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Old 04-16-2016, 08:35 PM
 
1,506 posts, read 921,077 times
Reputation: 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
"Stern was able to confirm in that very same report that, in fact, only 7% of the organization’s wealth (according to English authorities) was used for charity."
You are not screening your "Godless Mom" sources very well. We have already seen the how the "millions spent on convents" claim was distorted. Here is the actual Stern article: http://www.slideshare.net/karsevakin...die-stern-1998


The seven percent figure relates to the known expenses of one account of 5.3 million marks. The article also clearly states that what happened to the other 93% of that one account is "unknown". The article then adds that the Missionaries of Charity declined to tell the investigative journalist what they did with it. I bet not disclosing financial information to investigative journalists is a pretty common practice for all kinds of charities- even atheist ones. The article also contains sources saying that the donations considered excess were not misused. Mother Theresa is known to have passed on donations that she deemed that were not usable by her group to the Vatican.

Meanwhile Godless mom somehow "confuses" Stern's direct reference to one account with the who organization? Or, maybe, just maybe Godless Mom is not an objective source?

The Stern article is worth reading, even for supporters of Mother Theresa. It seems to indicate that Mother Theresa's group often stored donations that they felt would conflict with their vows and that their bookkeeping would not impress Deloitte accountants and that they are not inclined to divulge financial data. Then again, Mother Theresa was not running an accounting service, nor was she running a secular social work agency. Rather, she was running a religious order that mixed social work with a religious philosophy. In short, a certain number of Mother Theresa's strongest critics are saying:

- I would have run the organization differently (secular social work agency?)
- Mother Theresa did not run it the way I would have
- ergo, she is a "fraud".

In doing so, they ignore the obvious: It was not their organization. Mother Theresa had no obligation to run it how they thought it should be run. Not doing so does not make her a fraud. Heck, I would run the Planetary Society (humanistic science advocacy group) different. Does that make them "fraudulent"?

Last edited by Cryptic; 04-16-2016 at 09:33 PM..
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Old 04-16-2016, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
5,509 posts, read 2,591,975 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
You are not screening your "Godless Mom" sources very well. We have already seen the how the "millions spent on convents" claim was distorted. Here is the actual Stern article: Wuellenweber mother teresa - where are the millions (die stern 1998)
That doesn't look good for MT, the 'saint' now does it?
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Old 04-17-2016, 12:19 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,585 posts, read 5,115,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
And I have provide plenty of evidence, including Hitchen's documentary, that shows the negligence, a term one can use if one wants to be kind, that occurred.

The one who appears to want to be dense is not me. Again, attacking the messenger is not a way to build a discussion point, but a tactic used by those that have nothing else left.
And your entire point--is pointless and wasteful and an example of trolling in its highest form.

From that atheist who you ignored. She's telling you the same thing I am:

Quote:
So to all the Mother Teresa haters: if you donít like her, thatís your right and I respect it. But please, do not waste all this time writing studies or articles on her that have no other value than being controversial enough to be published. Pick your battles. Surely there are a lot worse people than her in this world who deserve your energy! And if Mother Teresa did such a bad job helping others, why not save that time spent criticizing her to instead try to make a difference in this world?
A Response To Mother Teresa's Critics

That author is an associate producer at HuffPost. She has seen a lot of articles that get people "air" or "print" time solely because they are controversial. That is the summation of all your articles. Not that there may not be some less than best practices (none of which you have proved MT herself engaged in), but that none of it is worth publishing.

But you have seen fit to start TWO threads on the same subject--an obvious troll effort.

Is there any possibility that your life has anything constructive in it? MT at least tried. All you, and those "wonderful researchers" of yours, have done is criticize a dead woman.
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Old 04-17-2016, 01:32 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 5,732,020 times
Reputation: 4508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
And your entire point--is pointless and wasteful and an example of trolling in its highest form.

From that atheist who you ignored. She's telling you the same thing I am:

A Response To Mother Teresa's Critics

That author is an associate producer at HuffPost. She has seen a lot of articles that get people "air" or "print" time solely because they are controversial. That is the summation of all your articles. Not that there may not be some less than best practices (none of which you have proved MT herself engaged in), but that none of it is worth publishing.

But you have seen fit to start TWO threads on the same subject--an obvious troll effort.

Is there any possibility that your life has anything constructive in it? MT at least tried. All you, and those "wonderful researchers" of yours, have done is criticize a dead woman.
You seem to like the word 'troll' and you seem to have an extraordinary concern that because a person is dead, they are now beyond reproach.

What is the primary purpose for exposing her evil and misdeeds? So that it never happens again. Ever. So that at least some are more aware next time and don't get caught up in the hype. So that phony religious quacks are not given a stage to play on. So that people who truly are suffering get real help.

Want to see a real saint in action? The atheist Bill Gates. His work is doing real work on a broad scale, not that fraud Teresa of Calcutta. The work that Rotary International is doing on polio, real work, and funds raised for that project all goes towards it, not diverted elsewhere. Those are the real saints.

Not some sanctimonious wretched little woman who scammed the world.
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Old 04-17-2016, 01:56 AM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
5,509 posts, read 2,591,975 times
Reputation: 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post

But you have seen fit to start TWO threads on the same subject--an obvious troll effort.
That's not trolling. Those are his threads. Trolling is what someone does on other peoples threads.

I for one want to know about things like this. Here I was thinking MT was doing wonderful work alleviating the suffering of the poor sick and dying. I want to know the truth. That won't happen if someone doesn't say something. That said, I will form my own conclusions based on the available evidence. If the evidence is inconclusive or insufficient then I will reserve judgement, so to speak, until I do have enough evidence.

So, I actually appreciate cupper highlighting these issues. We can debate him and challenge him and ask for information sources so we can check for ourselves but I don't believe we should be attempting to censor anyone. By all means, present a counter argument. That is after all how a balanced perspective is presented.

It's not such a big deal that she may have been a fraud but it is huge if she was doing a disservice to those in suffering. The problem is that on the face of it, she seems to have doing a disservice.

Now I want to hear the counter argument in her defense. After all, it is a grave allegation against her.
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Old 04-17-2016, 06:17 AM
 
1,506 posts, read 921,077 times
Reputation: 1994
Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
That doesn't look good for MT, the 'saint' now does it?
As "Declining to disclose internal financial data to investigative journalists" is probably not one of the considerations for sainthood, the Stern article has no impact one way, or the other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
The work that Rotary International is doing on polio, real work, and funds raised for that project all goes towards it, not diverted elsewhere. Those are the real saints.
Mother Theresa never conducted any advertising campaigns or fund raising drives of any sort. She did, however, accept an unknown sum of monies that people chose to give her organization. She never made any specific promises to anybody that she was doing "X" with the money. Rather, she said it was being spent on the "The Work" (as in the work of Christ). Now, people are butt hurt because Mother Theresa got to define "the Work of Christ", "real work" etc. for her organization and her critics didn't. I just don't get it.

I strongly suspect that the Dahli Lama and Mother Theresa have this aspect is common (no fund raising campaigns, but people give them a lot of money). Here is my hypothetical interview with him:

Me: Dahli Lama, what do you do with all that money that people send you with out being asked?
Dahli Lama: I further the cause of the Dharma in the world.
Me: Will you show me your internal financial records?
Dahli Lama: No
Me: Can I impose my personal definitions of "cause of the Dharma" , "real work" etc. on your group?
Dahli Lama: No
Me: I am getting real butt hurt, you are a fraud.... .

Last edited by Cryptic; 04-17-2016 at 06:54 AM..
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