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Old 03-19-2016, 10:20 PM
Status: "Phlegmatic." (set 1 day ago)
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
23,381 posts, read 12,092,645 times
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She sounds from her letters/diary to have been a tortured woman. Anyone who has known true, gnawing, on-going, daily pain - when every step is uphill for months and years on end - will not be quick to judge this woman.

Her suffering is written on her face.

I would hug her if I could.
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Old 03-19-2016, 11:49 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 5,740,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
She sounds from her letters/diary to have been a tortured woman. Anyone who has known true, gnawing, on-going, daily pain - when every step is uphill for months and years on end - will not be quick to judge this woman.

Her suffering is written on her face.

I would hug her if I could.
Wonderful.

Yet she caused, and did not alleviate, immense suffering on others. Her operating principal was that as good Christians, it was good for the dying to suffer, because Christ did. She committed sacrilegious acts by secretly baptizing Hindus and Muslims as they died.

Her words on the dying:
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people."
Moral? Not a chance. I'm sure it was her conviction, but that does not make it moral.

People worship the image she and the PR machine has portrayed her as. Not the reality. Genghis Khan would have loved to have that spin machine to rehabilitate his character.
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Old 03-20-2016, 12:17 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,605 posts, read 5,123,928 times
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There is a whole thread with hundreds of posts on the main Religion & Spirituality thread.

It is quite interesting that some of those who are non-believers and wish to make MT look bad, start from the same premise for attempting to debunk her as fundamentalists do when trying to read the Bible and apply what happened thousands of years ago today.

Both take situations from long ago and make judgment on their efficacy as if both occurred in the 21st century.

Mother Theresa became a nun at eighteen. When she left home she would never again see any of her family other than a brother. She was not trained in modern hygiene. Some of her hospice centers were less than sanitary. Yet the people she brought in had been, in many cases, literally dumped near massive trash and garbage areas.

What's more, nobody criticizing her has left their home never to see family again, gone to a far away strange land with only rudimentary language skills (in the early years), set up schools (her first work in India), health centers, and hospice houses. Nobody. None of us here including me.

So let's criticize away, and forget that Jesus said, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

cupper, you were left holding the bag on the other thread, too with these same criticisms. So sad to see you have as much spite in your heart that many fundamentalists have in their own. She managed to start many good things to be as wicked as you think she was:

Quote:
At the time of her death, Mother Teresa's Missionaries of Charity had over 4,000 sisters, and an associated brotherhood of 300 members, operating 610 missions in 123 countries. These included hospices and homes for people with HIV/AIDS, leprosy and tuberculosis, soup kitchens, children's and family counselling programs, personal helpers, orphanages, and schools. The Missionaries of Charity were also aided by Co-Workers, who numbered over 1 million by the 1990s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa

Last edited by Wardendresden; 03-20-2016 at 12:33 AM..
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Old 03-20-2016, 12:50 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 5,740,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
There is a whole thread with hundreds of posts on the main Religion & Spirituality thread.

It is quite interesting that some of those who are non-believers and wish to make MT look bad, start from the same premise for attempting to debunk her as fundamentalists do when trying to read the Bible and apply what happened thousands of years ago today.

Both take situations from long ago and make judgment on their efficacy as if both occurred in the 21st century.

Mother Theresa became a nun at eighteen. When she left home she would never again see any of her family other than a brother. She was not trained in modern hygiene. Some of her hospice centers were less than sanitary. Yet the people she brought in had been, in many cases, literally dumped near massive trash and garbage areas.

What's more, nobody criticizing her has left their home never to see family again, gone to a far away strange land with only rudimentary language skills (in the early years), set up schools (her first work in India), health centers, and hospice houses. Nobody. None of us here including me.

So let's criticize away, and forget that Jesus said, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."

cupper, you were left holding the bag on the other thread, too with these same criticisms. So sad to see you have as much spite in your heart that many fundamentalists have in their own. She managed to start many good things to be as wicked as you think she was:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa
I see your Wikipedia article, and raise you mine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critic..._Mother_Teresa

It is utterly immoral to raise millions of dollars, spend it on missions for her nuns, and not spend it on what most people thought they were donating for. It was fraudulent.

It is utterly immoral to raise millions of dollars and not use those funds for the dying, and those who DID NOT HAVE TO die if proper sanitation or triage were practiced. I've documented some of that already.

There simply is no excuse to overlook that the dying did not need to die in vain or in pain. Simply no excuse, unless you are insistent on being persuaded by the image, not the reality.

Ask yourself one question. Why were the millions raised NOT used on the sick and dying? Just answer that one.
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Old 03-20-2016, 01:05 AM
 
20,187 posts, read 12,837,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
A fraud she was. An evil fraud, who was great at marketing herself.


Mother Teresa Not a Saint: New Study Suggests She Was a Fraud - Mic
Hitchens? Isn't he that dead atheist who hated religion of all kinds? Really going to believe everything he says. Well I am sure he knows the truth now, whatever he thought when he was alive.
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Old 03-20-2016, 05:14 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,605 posts, read 5,123,928 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
I see your Wikipedia article, and raise you mine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critic..._Mother_Teresa

It is utterly immoral to raise millions of dollars, spend it on missions for her nuns, and not spend it on what most people thought they were donating for. It was fraudulent.

It is utterly immoral to raise millions of dollars and not use those funds for the dying, and those who DID NOT HAVE TO die if proper sanitation or triage were practiced. I've documented some of that already.

There simply is no excuse to overlook that the dying did not need to die in vain or in pain. Simply no excuse, unless you are insistent on being persuaded by the image, not the reality.

Ask yourself one question. Why were the millions raised NOT used on the sick and dying? Just answer that one.
No, just like in the other thread you are demanding Mother Theresa to be a 21st century doctor, a licensed CPA, and a top flight manager of a worldwide organization-when she was relatively uneducated--and the education she had was to be a 1920's school teacher. One might fault her for thinking beyond her abilities but that is a common human foible.

Do you honestly believe she had all that money sitting around in her bank account? She was living in the same conditions as the people she cared for. There are no reports of her misusing funds, Why weren't there cries of injustice from those she cared for? They loved her, worshipped her. I read an article by an Indian woman who was with her for 18 years following her own service in the Indian government. She remarked that everywhere MT went people flocked to be near her. These were the poor uneducated lower caste folks.

Anytime someone sets out to spend their life for others there are those sitting on the sidelines not giving a damn one way or another, not lifting a finger to help, but quite eager to point out the weakness of someone down in the trenches doing the work. In this case you fill the bill from your easy chair.

There are plenty of Christians worthy of demonizing. Mother Theresa just isn't one of them.

The only thing I can agree with in your source is that Mother Theresa isn't a saint. I do believe she would roll over in her grave if she knew what the RCC did. But then I think nobody is a saint, least of all those of us who failed to live and work in the conditions she did, and at the astounding salary she received!! Her lifetime income wouldn't equal six months of any American televangelist's salary.
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Old 03-20-2016, 07:00 AM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 180,626 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle144 View Post
Hitchens? Isn't he that dead atheist who hated religion of all kinds? Really going to believe everything he says. (rolling eyes)
There was an interesting article in the July/August 2015 issue of Discover magazine called: A User's Guide To Irrational Thinking.

The article went on to list a number of irrational arguments. One that I encounter frequently on internet forums employs personal attacks on the researcher in order to cast doubt on the researcher's findings. Never mind that the researcher's finding's might actually be true. Human nature being what it is, people are easily persuaded to ignore the quality of the researcher's findings based solely upon the researcher's credibility. Trial lawyers are famous for this tactic because it's so effective on jurists whose IQ is roughly that of a sea urchin.

Hitchens became a recognized expert on Teresa of Calcutta's dark side; so much so that during her beatification process, he was called upon by the Vatican to argue the case against her. This role was previously undertaken by the office of Devil's Advocate, prior to its abolishment under John Paul II. Hitchens wrote an article on that experience titled Playing The Devil's Advocate Pro Bono for the October 2001 issue of Vanity Fair magazine.

Teresa's devotees often attempt to invalidate Hitchens because he's an atheist. However, attempts to invalidate Christopher Hitchens' research solely on the basis of his private philosophy is both futile and intellectually irresponsible. That criteria is about as smart as refusal to read the Wall Street Journal and/or periodicals like TIME and NEWSWEEK, and/or watch broadcast news, and/or listen to AM/FM radio reports of current events solely because the information dispensed therein is compiled by secular humanists.

For people who lack the patience and/or the interest to read Hitchen's book, there's a TIME magazine article on the internet titled "Mother Teresa's Crisis Of Faith" authored by David Van Biema that gets to the point right quick. You may have to wait out an unrelated 20 second video before the article becomes accessible for reading.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Last edited by NyawehNyoh; 03-20-2016 at 07:18 AM..
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Old 03-20-2016, 09:16 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 5,740,147 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle144 View Post
Hitchens? Isn't he that dead atheist who hated religion of all kinds? Really going to believe everything he says. Well I am sure he knows the truth now, whatever he thought when he was alive.
Well, are we denigrating the author of an article about a study done by a university, or are we denigrating that study?

You may not like the facts of a situation, but that doesn't mean they are not true or that they exist.

So, do you think it is moral and ethical to use unsterilized needles when all that money was available?

Well, do you? How do you justify it to your god?
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Old 03-20-2016, 10:00 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 5,740,147 times
Reputation: 4508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
No, just like in the other thread you are demanding Mother Theresa to be a 21st century doctor, a licensed CPA, and a top flight manager of a worldwide organization-when she was relatively uneducated--and the education she had was to be a 1920's school teacher. One might fault her for thinking beyond her abilities but that is a common human foible.
Anyone who had the wherewithal to raise ~$500 million on the backs of the dying and then spend the bulk on setting up missions for the nuns in her order would have the wherewithal to take medical advice. She chose not to, as i documented, because she felt the poor needed to suffer to be like Christ.

She willfully did little more than operate a warehouse for the dead and dying.


Quote:
Do you honestly believe she had all that money sitting around in her bank account? She was living in the same conditions as the people she cared for. There are no reports of her misusing funds, Why weren't there cries of injustice from those she cared for? They loved her, worshipped her. I read an article by an Indian woman who was with her for 18 years following her own service in the Indian government. She remarked that everywhere MT went people flocked to be near her. These were the poor uneducated lower caste folks.
When she was ill, what happended? She herself received the best medical care possible; instead she used the exclusive Woodlands Clinic in the US and the Birla Heart Institute in Calcutta. But residents at her home for the dying in Calcutta received neither treatment nor dignity.

Quote:
Anytime someone sets out to spend their life for others there are those sitting on the sidelines not giving a damn one way or another, not lifting a finger to help, but quite eager to point out the weakness of someone down in the trenches doing the work. In this case you fill the bill from your easy chair.
Not only was she negligent and fraudulently raised money, she was a liar.

I'll repeat, a liar. And she repeatedly lied.

From the book "Mother Teresa The Final Verdict"By Aroup Chatterjee comes the following:
Shortly after her Nobel, she told her friend and biographer Kathryn Spink: 'In Calcutta alone we cook for 7,000 people everyday and if one day we do not cook they do not eat.'5 This was a voracious claim - at the time the Missionary of Charity kitchens cooked for at the most 500 people a day, and that included their vast army of nuns, novices and Brothers, most of whom do not have any charitable function. The '7000 people' story was part of a fairly lengthy parable, similar to the one with 'loaves and fishes' of Jesus. Mother retold it numerous times, in various parts of the world, but never in Calcutta itself.

And:

The Missionaries of Charity in Calcutta possess a small fleet of 'ambulances', many of them donated by businesses and individuals. These vehicles are painted to appear as ambulances and are fitted with red beacons; they are exempt from traffic regulations. But their main or sole function is to provide a taxi service for the nuns. (The Calcutta registry of ambulance services never did list her fleet)





Quote:
There are plenty of Christians worthy of demonizing. Mother Theresa just isn't one of them.
More of the truth needs to come out. This kind of of spreading of myths is EXACTLY how religions start. False and exaggerated claims are made, the greatness and the goodness of a person is magnified, and any contrary attempts at pointing out facts are bashed, poo-pooed, ridiculed and down played.

Researchers found that the vast majority of patients who had come to visit Mother Teresa’s missions for the dying had hoped to find doctors to treat them, but instead found unhygienic conditions, a shortage of care, inadequate food and no painkillers.


People are enthralled and celebrate the image of Teresa of Calcutta, not the reality.

You may not like the facts I point out, but you cannot show that they are not true.
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Old 03-20-2016, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,605 posts, read 5,123,928 times
Reputation: 3917
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Anyone who had the wherewithal to raise ~$500 million on the backs of the dying and then spend the bulk on setting up missions for the nuns in her order would have the wherewithal to take medical advice. She chose not to, as i documented, because she felt the poor needed to suffer to be like Christ.

She willfully did little more than operate a warehouse for the dead and dying.




When she was ill, what happended? She herself received the best medical care possible; instead she used the exclusive Woodlands Clinic in the US and the Birla Heart Institute in Calcutta. But residents at her home for the dying in Calcutta received neither treatment nor dignity.



Not only was she negligent and fraudulently raised money, she was a liar.

I'll repeat, a liar. And she repeatedly lied.

From the book "Mother Teresa The Final Verdict"By Aroup Chatterjee comes the following:
Shortly after her Nobel, she told her friend and biographer Kathryn Spink: 'In Calcutta alone we cook for 7,000 people everyday and if one day we do not cook they do not eat.'5 This was a voracious claim - at the time the Missionary of Charity kitchens cooked for at the most 500 people a day, and that included their vast army of nuns, novices and Brothers, most of whom do not have any charitable function. The '7000 people' story was part of a fairly lengthy parable, similar to the one with 'loaves and fishes' of Jesus. Mother retold it numerous times, in various parts of the world, but never in Calcutta itself.

And:

The Missionaries of Charity in Calcutta possess a small fleet of 'ambulances', many of them donated by businesses and individuals. These vehicles are painted to appear as ambulances and are fitted with red beacons; they are exempt from traffic regulations. But their main or sole function is to provide a taxi service for the nuns. (The Calcutta registry of ambulance services never did list her fleet)







More of the truth needs to come out. This kind of of spreading of myths is EXACTLY how religions start. False and exaggerated claims are made, the greatness and the goodness of a person is magnified, and any contrary attempts at pointing out facts are bashed, poo-pooed, ridiculed and down played.

Researchers found that the vast majority of patients who had come to visit Mother Teresa’s missions for the dying had hoped to find doctors to treat them, but instead found unhygienic conditions, a shortage of care, inadequate food and no painkillers.


People are enthralled and celebrate the image of Teresa of Calcutta, not the reality.

You may not like the facts I point out, but you cannot show that they are not true.
I'll leave you to your sad hate and cruel judgments of a woman who personally lived like a peasant.

I see no difference between your hard line position as an atheist than that of fundamentalists about their idol. You are as into black and white views of Christians as they are about atheists and liberal Christians.

Deep in your souls you are exactly the same.

What a pity. An atheist jeffbase40.
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