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Old 03-21-2016, 09:59 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 5,760,683 times
Reputation: 4508

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Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle144 View Post
No, I don't think the people over there liked her. She put the spotlight on their ignoring the poor to let them die in gutters.
Read the references at the bottom of the link. But I know you won't.

And once again, I see you too are not disputing facts. Like only 7% going to real charity. Like not sterilizing needles. You know, the details, not the image.
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Old 03-21-2016, 10:27 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,079 posts, read 8,601,269 times
Reputation: 6009
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyawehNyoh View Post
No; I'm not disgusted with Teresa, I'm disgusted with her spiritual counselors for their gross incompetence. She looked to them for answers but all they had to offer was rhetoric and pious platitudes.
In my experience that is all "spiritual counselors" ever have to offer those who undergo a dark night of the soul. In some quarters of Christianity, blame the victim is even quite popular.

I fault MT for a lot of things but not for her doubts or her inability to believe in the face of mounting evidence that her beliefs had no basis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyawehNyoh View Post
That poor woman went to her death unsure there even is a God, and if so, she was afraid He didn't particularly like her, and maybe even quite disposed to condemn her. That's an awful state of mind to find one's self in at life's end.
Indeed. Bad theology is a hard taskmaster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyawehNyoh View Post
At the urging of Henry D'Souza, the Archbishop of Calcutta (a.k.a. Kolkata), Teresa agreed to an exorcism in the final weeks of her life-- performed by Father Rosario Stroscio --if perchance her acute anxiety was being caused by demons clouding her mind.
Well I'm sure THAT went well.
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Old 03-22-2016, 01:32 AM
 
20,187 posts, read 12,871,320 times
Reputation: 5421
I think a lot of saints felt unworthy of heaven. The holier they get the more they see how unfit they are for a spectacular place like heaven. Most of us ordinary folks can't fathom what they do so it doesn't bother us as much. Saint suffer more than we do. Just a fact.
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Old 03-22-2016, 08:05 AM
 
Location: Wisconsin
2,202 posts, read 1,327,923 times
Reputation: 1353
All true believers are saints in Gods eye . Mother Theresa fits that bill. No need for man and his bizzare religion to beautify anyone.. Go away and stop ceremony it's pagan!!
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Old 03-23-2016, 12:21 AM
 
1,482 posts, read 799,635 times
Reputation: 569
exactly, all the saved in Christ are saints. "saints" in the Catholic and Orthodox concept are just particular good examples of Christians saints in general----not perfect all the time in every way and subject to all the temptations and frustrations that most every other Christian must contend with but persevering in faith and love with God's grace to do something wonderful that is inspiring and helpful for the rest of us to also become saints ("official" or otherwise). we are all called as Christians to be the best we can be (i.e. a "saint") by living a life of holiness and sanctification in love of God and neighbor.


nevertheless, no Catholic or Orthodox is required or commanded to give reverence/honor (NOT worship) of any kind to any particular "saint" officially recognized or otherwise. any "miracles" that are ascribed to them is ONLY through, with, and in Christ to the glory of God and the edification of the faithful.

Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 03-23-2016 at 12:55 AM..
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Old 03-24-2016, 09:02 AM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 181,437 times
Reputation: 57
-
I have yet to encounter a passage in the New Testament-- either in the gospels or the epistles --instructing Christ's followers to pray to departed saints.

So then why does Rome encourage the practice? Well; it's all due to clever sophistry.

According to Jas 5:16, the fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. So Rome reasons that seeing as how the righteousness of saints in heaven is beyond question, then it's smart to seek their assistance.

Bottom line: prayer addressed to departed saints is a human initiative.

Now; according to 1John 2:1, Jesus Christ is righteous

And according to John 14:13-14, it's okay to address prayers to him.

So; prayer to Christ is biblical, while prayers to departed saints isn't; viz: prayers to Christ are authorized; while prayers to departed saints are unauthorized.

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Last edited by NyawehNyoh; 03-24-2016 at 09:16 AM..
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Old 03-24-2016, 09:44 AM
 
1,482 posts, read 799,635 times
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as said many times before, Catholics and Orthodox MAY (but are NOT required to) pray "to" the Saints in heaven for help in "lifting our prayers up" to God OR to those on earth (our fellow Christians) for their help. Catholics and Orthodox believe that the bonds of charity that unite (or should unite) Christians on earth are NOT broken by physical death and those who "die" in Christ are united with Him when their life on earth is done--or why would Jesus say to the 'good thief", "today you WILL be with me in paradise."?---and that they continue to want to pray WITH us and FOR us (right back to the "prayer of the just man" you mentioned. again, Saints in the here or hereafter have NO power of their own to grant us anything---except through, in, and with, the power of God.


BTW, "canonization" does not "create" a saint, the whole process is about RECOGNIZING that a particular "friend of God" a "hero of faith" in their life on earth of faith, hope, and love in Christ was just that (which is what we all strive to be even if the church or anybody else ever notices; God does!!!)---and therefore worthy of special public recognition and honor (NOT worship) by the rest of the faithful IF they choose to.


saints of any sort ("officially" recognized or not) are regarded as examples to be followed (think of St. Francis of Assisi with his boundless charity, St. Thomas Aquinas and his efforts to unite human reason and divine revelation ("faith seeking understanding", of course the various apostles, evangelists, and martyrs mentioned in the bible like Peter, Paul, and St. Steven, and yes, even Mother Theresa of Calcutta for her work with the poorest of the poor EVEN THOUGH she was plagued by doubt, depression, and fear as to the presence of God in her life OR just some humble regular brother or sister in Christ you knew (or know right now) whose faith and love persists/persisted despite the world, the flesh, and the devil.
their examples can inspire and challenge us in our walk of faith AND Catholics believe their prayers in this world or the next for us and with us to God can help bear us up so we may continue to become true saints of God ourselves.


in the peace of Christ.

Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 03-24-2016 at 10:11 AM..
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Old 03-24-2016, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 181,437 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeinbandonoregon View Post
as said many times before, Catholics and Orthodox MAY (but are NOT required to) pray "to" the Saints in heaven for help in "lifting our prayers up" to God OR to those on earth (our fellow Christians) for their help. Catholics and Orthodox believe that the bonds of charity that unite (or should unite) Christians on earth are NOT broken by physical death and those who "die" in Christ are united with Him when their life on earth is done--or why would Jesus say to the 'good thief", "today you WILL be with me in paradise."?---and that they continue to want to pray WITH us and FOR us (right back to the "prayer of the just man" you mentioned. again, Saints in the here or hereafter have NO power of their own to grant us anything---except through, in, and with, the power of God.


BTW, "canonization" does not "create" a saint, the whole process is about RECOGNIZING that a particular "friend of God" a "hero of faith" in their life on earth of faith, hope, and love in Christ was just that (which is what we all strive to be even if the church or anybody else ever notices; God does!!!)---and therefore worthy of special public recognition and honor (NOT worship) by the rest of the faithful IF they choose to.


saints of any sort ("officially" recognized or not) are regarded as examples to be followed (think of St. Francis of Assisi with his boundless charity, St. Thomas Aquinas and his efforts to unite human reason and divine revelation ("faith seeking understanding", of course the various apostles, evangelists, and martyrs mentioned in the bible like Peter, Paul, and St. Steven, and yes, even Mother Theresa of Calcutta for her work with the poorest of the poor EVEN THOUGH she was plagued by doubt, depression, and fear as to the presence of God in her life OR just some humble regular brother or sister in Christ you knew whose faith and love persisted despite the world, the flesh, and the devil.
their examples can inspire and challenge us in our walk of faith AND Catholics believe their prayers in this world or the next for us and with us to God can help bear us up so we may continue to become true saints of God ourselves.


in the peace of Christ.
Don't you mean in the peace of sophistry and humanistic reasoning?

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Last edited by NyawehNyoh; 03-24-2016 at 10:40 AM..
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Old 03-24-2016, 11:06 AM
 
1,482 posts, read 799,635 times
Reputation: 569
the peace (and love) of Christ that can show forth in the lives and deaths of "Saints" recognized by the church (Catholic and Orthodox) for remembrance, respect, and even imitation AND in the lives of other "saints" many of them in the here and now perhaps known only to you and I but others perhaps known only to God who also strive to conform their lives to Christ in faith, hope, and love of God and neighbor in both works and prayer.


if you have ever asked another brother or sister in Christ for help in prayer to God because you valued their strong faith you have in effect asked a "saint" for their intercession.


again, Catholics and Orthodox believe that as well as those saints with us now on earth those who have passed on to the fullness of life in Christ (just like that "good thief" who was with Christ immediately after death) are STILL our brothers and sisters and will continue to join their prayers with us to the God.


in the peace of Christ.
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Old 03-24-2016, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 181,437 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeinbandonoregon View Post
again
Again:

I have yet to encounter a passage in the New Testament-- either in the gospels or the epistles --instructing Christ's followers to pray to departed saints.

So then why does Rome encourage the practice? Well; it's all due to clever sophistry.

According to Jas 5:16, the fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. So Rome reasons that seeing as how the righteousness of saints in heaven is beyond question, then it's smart to seek their assistance.

Bottom line: prayer addressed to departed saints is a human initiative.

Now; according to 1John 2:1, Jesus Christ is righteous

And according to John 14:13-14, it's okay to address prayers to him.

So; prayer to Christ is biblical, while prayers to departed saints isn't; viz: prayers to Christ are authorized; while prayers to departed saints are unauthorized.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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