U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 03-24-2016, 02:11 PM
 
1,481 posts, read 797,682 times
Reputation: 569

Advertisements

you must and should believe as you must. OTOH, Catholics and Orthodox believe in the importance of both sacred scripture AND sacred tradition to interpret and understand the word of God and the teachings of Christ. since nowhere in scripture is there a PROHIBITION of asking for the help in prayer of our brothers and sisters in Christ (the old testament prohibition against necromancy is NOT the same) and since AGAIN we know by Jesus' words to the good thief that those who die in faith are with him (not sleeping and therefore probably aware of us and our needs) thus it is not unreasonable to (if we so choose) to ask for their prayers (not their power) as we may ask for the prayers of those with us right here and now in helping with our righteous petitions to God through Christ in the Holy Spirit.


BTW, if you are really interested, the non-partisan "Wikipedia" articles on "saint" and "canonization" are a good source for explanation and illustration on the doctrines and practices of the Catholic and Orthodox churches on these subjects.


also, "sophistry" is generally defined as using specious logic to deceive---nobody is trying to deceive you, let alone convert you just explain what many other Christians believe. whether you believe in this or any other doctrine according to scripture or any other means is your (and my) choice.


ultimately, God will judge us all not on which particular doctrine we profess or BELIEVE but on what those beliefs led us to DO---what acts of charity, love, and forgiveness we performed for love of God and neighbor even as in Matt. 25: 31-46. May BOTH of us and ALL of us who claim to be Christians regardless of and in spite of our various and sundry doctrinal differences not be found wanting in that respect.


in the peace of Christ.

Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 03-24-2016 at 02:24 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-24-2016, 02:22 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 5,752,275 times
Reputation: 4508
Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeinbandonoregon View Post
you must and should believe as you must. OTOH, Catholics and Orthodox believe in the importance of both sacred scripture AND sacred tradition to interpret and understand the word of God and the teachings of Christ. since nowhere in scripture is there a PROHIBITION of asking for the help in prayer of our brothers and sisters in Christ (the old testament prohibition against necromancy is NOT the same) and since AGAIN we know by Jesus' words to the good thief that those who die in faith are with him (not sleeping and therefore probably aware of us and our needs) thus it is not unreasonable to (if we so choose) to ask for their prayers (not their power) as we may ask for the prayers of those with us right here and now in helping with our righteous petitions to God through Christ in the Holy Spirit.


BTW, if you are really interested, the non-partisan "Wikipedia" articles on "saint" and "canonization" are a good source for explanation and illustration on the doctrines and practices of the Catholic and Orthodox churches on these subjects.


also, "sophistry" is generally defined as using specious logic to deceive---nobody is trying to deceive you, let alone convert you just explain what many other Christians believe. whether you believe in on the basis of this or any other doctrine according to scripture or any other means is your (and my) choice---in the same way perhaps that you likely don't believe in the literal meaning of John 6:53 about the requirement to "eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood..."?


ultimately, God will judge us all not on which particular doctrine we profess or BELIEVE but on what those beliefs led us to DO---what acts of charity, love, and forgiveness we performed for love of God and neighbor even as in Matt. 25: 31-46. May BOTH of us and ALL of us who claim to be Christians regardless of and in spite of our differences not be found wanting in that respect.


in the peace of Christ.
Here, have some $$$.

Now, go to the Capital store and buy a Cap Key. It will help others actually read your sentences.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-24-2016, 02:29 PM
 
1,481 posts, read 797,682 times
Reputation: 569
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
Here, have some $$$.

Now, go to the Capital store and buy a Cap Key. It will help others actually read your sentences.

LOL. seriously, if that's really all you have to contend with me in style or content on this discussion then you have absolutely NOTHING (see I used the cap key!!!) to say and no point at all to make, so sorry.


my inability to write (BTW, and in the context of the general discussion who made you the "patron saint" of correct grammar and the enforcer of same on a board that is about the exchange of ideas and not an English composition class?) which so saddens you is matched it seems by your inability (or unwillingness) to try to understand my modest contentions which saddens me, too!!!



May God bless you and me and everybody else who strives for understanding AND charity (and the proper use of the "cap key").

Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 03-24-2016 at 03:02 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-24-2016, 11:25 PM
 
20,187 posts, read 12,854,695 times
Reputation: 5420

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj0k1j2MX6E

Trent Horn - Why do Catholics pray to the saints in heaven?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-08-2016, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 181,101 times
Reputation: 57
-
A prayer that begins with "God; if you're out there" is a prayer that does not make it to heaven. In point of fact, James said that those kinds of prayers reveal just how mixed up somebody really is.

. Jas 1:5-8 . . If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double minded man, unstable in all his ways.

Teresa's private letters written in secret to spiritual counselors reveal that she actually prayed those kinds of prayers; and one of them went like this: "If there be God-- please forgive me."

James said that people who pray iffy prayers should not expect a response from God. You know why?

. Heb 11:6 . .Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that he exists.

Webster's defines "impossible" as: incapable of being, or of occurring.

Webster's defines "must" as an indispensable item; viz: essential.

Ironically, a demon's level of faith is actually superior to Teresa's. At least they believe in the existence of God.

. Jas 2:19-20 . . You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-- and tremble!

I simply cannot admire a "saint" whose iffy belief in the existence of God doesn't even measure up to the quality of a demon's belief.

In reality, Teresa was an agnostic; which Webster's defines as one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. To her credit, Teresa did want a God to be out there, but her utter failure to feel even the slightest glimmer of the Lord's presence prevented her from being sure about it.

"I am told God loves me; and yet the reality of darkness & coldness & emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul."

"The damned of Hell suffer eternal punishment because they experiment with the loss of God. In my own soul, I feel the terrible pain of this loss. I feel that God does not want me, that God is not God; and that He does not really exist."

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2016, 05:21 PM
 
20,187 posts, read 12,854,695 times
Reputation: 5420
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyawehNyoh View Post
-
A prayer that begins with "God; if you're out there" is a prayer that does not make it to heaven. In point of fact, James said that those kinds of prayers reveal just how mixed up somebody really is.

. Jas 1:5-8 . . If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double minded man, unstable in all his ways.

Teresa's private letters written in secret to spiritual counselors reveal that she actually prayed those kinds of prayers; and one of them went like this: "If there be God-- please forgive me."

James said that people who pray iffy prayers should not expect a response from God. You know why?

. Heb 11:6 . .Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that he exists.

Webster's defines "impossible" as: incapable of being, or of occurring.

Webster's defines "must" as an indispensable item; viz: essential.

Ironically, a demon's level of faith is actually superior to Teresa's. At least they believe in the existence of God.

. Jas 2:19-20 . . You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-- and tremble!

I simply cannot admire a "saint" whose iffy belief in the existence of God doesn't even measure up to the quality of a demon's belief.

In reality, Teresa was an agnostic; which Webster's defines as one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. To her credit, Teresa did want a God to be out there, but her utter failure to feel even the slightest glimmer of the Lord's presence prevented her from being sure about it.

"I am told God loves me; and yet the reality of darkness & coldness & emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul."

"The damned of Hell suffer eternal punishment because they experiment with the loss of God. In my own soul, I feel the terrible pain of this loss. I feel that God does not want me, that God is not God; and that He does not really exist."

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
And yet she put her faith in God and soldiered on----the sign of a true saint.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2016, 07:37 PM
 
37,609 posts, read 25,300,228 times
Reputation: 5860
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyawehNyoh View Post
-
A prayer that begins with "God; if you're out there" is a prayer that does not make it to heaven. In point of fact, James said that those kinds of prayers reveal just how mixed up somebody really is.
Your arrogance and hubris in speaking for God and deciding what prayers He would and would not hear are beyond the pale. But, given the utter wackiness of your other posts and monologues copy pasted from somewhere, It should not surprise anyone.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2016, 10:38 PM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 181,101 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle144 View Post
And yet she put her faith in God and soldiered on
Before somebody can put their faith in God, they first have to believe there is a God. By her own admissions, in private letters written to spiritual counselors; Teresa was never quite sure there really is a God out there.

"I am told God loves me; and yet the reality of darkness & coldness & emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul."

"The damned of Hell suffer eternal punishment because they experiment with the loss of God. In my own soul, I feel the terrible pain of this loss. I feel that God does not want me, that God is not God; and that He does not really exist."

"If there be God-- please forgive me."

"When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven, there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives and hurt my very soul. How painful is this unknown pain-- I have no faith."

"The place of God in my soul is blank-- There is no God in me"

James wrote that faith without works is dead. Well; the reverse is just as true: works without faith are dead.

It's not uncommon to encounter numbers of Teresa's admirers who are so blinded by her accomplishments and her public image that they cannot see past them to her deplorable spiritual condition.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-09-2016, 11:18 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,627 posts, read 5,134,941 times
Reputation: 3919
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyawehNyoh View Post
Before somebody can put their faith in God, they first have to believe there is a God. By her own admissions, in private letters written to spiritual counselors; Teresa was never quite sure there really is a God out there.

"I am told God loves me; and yet the reality of darkness & coldness & emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul."

"The damned of Hell suffer eternal punishment because they experiment with the loss of God. In my own soul, I feel the terrible pain of this loss. I feel that God does not want me, that God is not God; and that He does not really exist."

"If there be God-- please forgive me."

"When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven, there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives and hurt my very soul. How painful is this unknown pain-- I have no faith."

"The place of God in my soul is blank-- There is no God in me"

James wrote that faith without works is dead. Well; the reverse is just as true: works without faith are dead.

It's not uncommon to encounter numbers of Teresa's admirers who are so blinded by her accomplishments and her public image that they cannot see past them to her deplorable spiritual condition.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Between the two faith and works, mankind is better off in the NOW with ---- works. But faith and works also works.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-10-2016, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 181,101 times
Reputation: 57
-
It's easy to assume that only really bad people are in hell. But according to Matt 7:23-27, John 3:3-8, John 3:14-20, John 3:36, and Rev 20:11-15, anybody can be there; the humane and the inhumane; the good, the bad, and the not so bad,-- bikers, bakers, lawyers, welders, actors and actresses, housewives, bankers, heavy equipment operators, loggers, convicts, celebrities, homeless bums, clergy, prostitutes, drug lords, postmen, Presidents, Kings, statesmen, astronauts, school teachers, scientists, nurses, doctors, chemists, machinists, carpenters, waiters, hotel managers, cops, judges, nuns, priests, Popes, deacons, salesmen, Miss Americas, news anchors, weathermen, and birdwatchers, et al --people from every path, every career, every religion, every culture, every language, every ethnic, every craft, and every status: they're all down there.

Because when you strip away their gender, their race, their titles, their distinctions, their accomplishments, their greatness, their admirers, their privileges, and their entitlements; and stand them before God naked; people are only human; and humans are intrinsically sinful creatures.

. Gen 8:21 . . Man's thoughts and actions are bent toward evil from childhood.

. Ps 58:3 . . Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.

. Eph 2:3 . .We were by nature objects of wrath.

Works cannot get creatures into heaven whose thoughts and actions are bent towards evil from childhood. Works cannot get creatures into heaven who start telling lies practically as soon as they can speak. Works cannot get creatures into heaven who by nature are objects of wrath rather than objects of kindness.

James said that belief in the existence of God is insufficient to save people. Well; just imagine the chances of someone like Teresa being saved who, behind the scenes, was never sure that there is a God and who, at times, seriously doubted God even existed. Demons have a better chance than people like that no matter how charitable and/or philanthropic they may seem to the rest of us.

. Heb 11:6 . .Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists.

Can you appreciate the irony and the futility of bestowing sainthood upon someone who, during virtually five decades of missionary service, failed to please God?!! And if Teresa failed to please God; then she certainly failed to please His son.

"I and my Father are one." (John 10:30 and John 17:22)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top