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Old 04-07-2016, 02:14 PM
 
9,169 posts, read 2,775,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Can you read? I said that if there is no compelling secular reason, then an interpretation of God's will should never be imposed on those who don't believe that interpretation.

Honestly, if God's will in any situation is so nebulous that it is not apparent to a reasonable adult, then you need to reexamine your interpretation.

So. fully mature Son and no tyrant, I expect that if I were unable to convince a person contemplating abortion, God would say, "Thank you for not alienating that person by forcing her to keep from doing what she does not believe to be wrong. If it is wrong she will be convinced of it...eventually.

I can read just fine. Can you? I wasn't directing my comments to any one poster or I would have said so at the beginning, just at the ridiculous concept I'd gleaned from reading several. BUT, since you decided to reply as if I did.....

No compelling secular reason? If killing outside the womb is murder, why is it not murder inside the womb? Murder is murder. Man tries every way in the world to justify sin and it's consequences, and this is just another one of those hair-splitting, intellectualizing away attempts to do just that.

But of course, the baby's family or lack thereof doesn't run screaming to the police demanding justice, so I guess that means it's not murder. Or because it's not a "person" yet, even though you have to kill it, therefore it is alive. What makes it a person IS in there, regardless of it's physical development being completed yet, and it's called a soul, the vehicle for the spirit.

Nebulous? I don't think murdering babies or not is nebulous at all.

Yeah, I know in the scales alienation is going to balance out as a greater concern than with allowing murder. Peace
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Old 04-07-2016, 04:56 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,472 posts, read 31,862,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
Just when I'd thought I heard every insane argument there is against doing G-d's will. Now it's the "I believe it's morally wrong, I believe it's against G-d's will, but I don't believe it should be a secular law, because that would be imposing it on others."

NO DIFFERENT, than saying you believe murder is morally wrong, it's against G-d's will, but I don't believe it should be a secular law, because I'd be imposing it on others who don't believer murder is wrong.
That's pretty much my point. Lawlessness is apathy, and yet people here argue that having laws is somehow wrong because they don't want to impose anything on anyone.
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Old 04-07-2016, 05:06 PM
 
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What they want is the same thing the some of the Israelites, our example we're told, wanted when they tried to elect themselves to be the ruling High Priest and Prophet of G-d, so they could make all the decisions and decide what acceptable sacrifices were. And being swallowed up/consumed of the earth/flesh is always going to be the answer to that. Peace
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Old 04-07-2016, 05:30 PM
 
37,491 posts, read 25,224,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Try to listen carefully. We agree that it is against God's wishes and is morally wrong! It is killing a developing human being. But it is NOT killing a "person" or even a puppy under secular law and should not be a focus of secular law. It is between the Mother and God, period. I personally do not know what circumstances or state of mind I would need to be in to EVER contemplate, let alone condone actually killing my own developing child. But my inability to understand or envision such circumstances or state of mind is no reason for me to deny any mother the choice to stop what is happening in her own body.
As usual, you are clueless about what the real issues are and what those who refuse to inferfere with a Mother's choice actually believe and feel. It has nothing to do with whether or not it is wrong because it IS! It has to do with whether or not society should do anything about it. That is where all the controversy lies. This is nonsense. Of course, there is the Spirit of agape love there, Finn. But it does NOT justify taking societal action using the legal system. It is morally wrong, period, but NOT legally or societally wrong.
Amen. Well said. They clearly are not seeing the two different issues (or they are deliberately not seeing them).
What do you think enacting a secular law against abortion would be doing if NOT imposing on anyone, Finn??? We "discern in the Spirit" that it is morally WRONG, but we do not condone imposing that on anyone through the law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Apparently some people do not believe there should be laws. I beg to differ and so does the word of God
As usual you remain clueless about the issues. Finn. There has to be a SECULAR reason (NOT an appeal to God's Will) for secular laws!!!God's will is NOT an acceptable reason for enacting secular laws. There are too many differences and disagreements in society about God for that to make societal sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
having laws is not the problem; having unjust laws is. Laws based only on interpretations of God's will are always unjust....to the ones who don't believe that interpretation.
Well said, nate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
Just when I'd thought I heard every insane argument there is against doing G-d's will. Now it's the "I believe it's morally wrong, I believe it's against G-d's will, but I don't believe it should be a secular law, because that would be imposing it on others."
NO DIFFERENT, than saying you believe murder is morally wrong, it's against G-d's will, but I don't believe it should be a secular law, because I'd be imposing it on others who don't believe murder is wrong.
Murder is clearly a public safety and a very SECULAR reason for making it illegal. Terminating your own pregnancy is NOT! God's Will is NOT an acceptable reason for secular law absent a compelling secular reason. Just because YOU think YOUR God's Will should apply to everyone does NOT mean you can impose YOUR beliefs on everyone else. YOUR God and YOUR Master is NOT everyone's God and Master. Get over it.Religion has divided us too long over this kind of desire to dictate to others. Time for it to end. We all will reap what we sow and account to our God for it (whoever or whatever that God may be). That should be enough. God wants voluntary compliance or it is pointless.
Quote:
So fully mature Sons, if He were standing right here in front of you right now, how do you think He'd receive your telling Him that you think their right to choose to murder innocents was the most important thing? Peace
Their right to VOLUNTARILY choose to comply is the most important thing to God, Rbbi, otherwise, we are pointless robots. We are NOT God's enforcers!!! That would be counterproductive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Can you read? I said that if there is no compelling secular reason, then an interpretation of God's will should never be imposed on those who don't believe that interpretation.
Honestly, if God's will in any situation is so nebulous that it is not apparent to a reasonable adult, then you need to reexamine your interpretation.
So. fully mature Son and no tyrant, I expect that if I were unable to convince a person contemplating abortion, God would say, "Thank you for not alienating that person by forcing her to keep from doing what she does not believe to be wrong. If it is wrong she will be convinced of it...eventually.
Well said, nate. We are NOT God's police.
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Old 04-07-2016, 05:45 PM
 
37,491 posts, read 25,224,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
That's pretty much my point. Lawlessness is apathy, and yet people here argue that having laws is somehow wrong because they don't want to impose anything on anyone.
Who the h*ll is advocating lawlessness, Finn???? Your extremist interpretations of everything you disagree with are bizarre!!!! Laws must have compelling secular reasons for them, NOT THEOLOGICAL ones! What God wants is between each individual and their God, PERIOD!! It has nothing to do with society which uses laws to protect the safety of its citizens and promote order and community. Society recognizes citizens when they are actually BORN, not before. That is why someone conceived in Mexico but born in the USA is considered a citizen of the USA, NOT Mexico.
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Old 04-07-2016, 07:48 PM
 
9,169 posts, read 2,775,874 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
As usual you remain clueless about the issues. Finn. There has to be a SECULAR reason (NOT an appeal to God's Will) for secular laws!!!God's will is NOT an acceptable reason for enacting secular laws. There are too many differences and disagreements in society about God for that to make societal sense.

Well said, nate!
Murder is clearly a public safety and a very SECULAR reason for making it illegal. Terminating your own pregnancy is NOT! God's Will is NOT an acceptable reason for secular law absent a compelling secular reason. Just because YOU think YOUR God's Will should apply to everyone does NOT mean you can impose YOUR beliefs on everyone else. YOUR God and YOUR Master is NOT everyone's God and Master. Get over it.Religion has divided us too long over this kind of desire to dictate to others. Time for it to end. We all will reap what we sow and account to our God for it (whoever or whatever that God may be). That should be enough. God wants voluntary compliance or it is pointless.Their right to VOLUNTARILY choose to comply is the most important thing to God, Rbbi, otherwise, we are pointless robots. We are NOT God's enforcers!!! That would be counterproductive.
Well said, nate. We are NOT God's police.


It's not about enforcement it's about speaking the Truth. And I have just as much right to state what I believe as it lines up with the Word of G-d as you do to criticize it! You are either for Him and His ways or you are not; there is no "secular" in His vocabulary, and He fully intends for heaven and earth to agree, beginning with the one between your ears and the one you're walking around in.

Since you only want what Yeshua stands for......try these words of His.....thy kingdom come, thy will be done, IN EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN. Well, WHERE IS His kingdom? Is it not in you? And if so, then WHY are your words not lining up with His prayer?

You think you're championing "justice" but there is NO JUSTICE but His, just like there is no righteousness but His. If we don't declare what it is, who will? You are not your own, if you are His, you were bought with a price. Peace
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Old 04-07-2016, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,547 posts, read 6,995,657 times
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Dealing with all the self-righteous confidence of ignorance is frustrating. Some people will never look at and try to understand what the other point of view is.

Exposing such agendas is a part of what discerning is all about.
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Old 04-07-2016, 08:14 PM
 
37,491 posts, read 25,224,572 times
Reputation: 5854
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
As usual you remain clueless about the issues. Finn. There has to be a SECULAR reason (NOT an appeal to God's Will) for secular laws!!!God's will is NOT an acceptable reason for enacting secular laws. There are too many differences and disagreements in society about God for that to make societal sense.
Well said, nate!
Murder is clearly a public safety and a very SECULAR reason for making it illegal. Terminating your own pregnancy is NOT! God's Will is NOT an acceptable reason for secular law absent a compelling secular reason. Just because YOU think YOUR God's Will should apply to everyone does NOT mean you can impose YOUR beliefs on everyone else. YOUR God and YOUR Master is NOT everyone's God and Master. Get over it.Religion has divided us too long over this kind of desire to dictate to others. Time for it to end. We all will reap what we sow and account to our God for it (whoever or whatever that God may be). That should be enough. God wants voluntary compliance or it is pointless.Their right to VOLUNTARILY choose to comply is the most important thing to God, Rbbi, otherwise, we are pointless robots. We are NOT God's enforcers!!! That would be counterproductive.
Well said, nate. We are NOT God's police.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Who the h*ll is advocating lawlessness, Finn???? Your extremist interpretations of everything you disagree with are bizarre!!!! Laws must have compelling secular reasons for them, NOT THEOLOGICAL ones! What God wants is between each individual and their God, PERIOD!! It has nothing to do with society which uses laws to protect the safety of its citizens and promote order and community. Society recognizes citizens when they are actually BORN, not before. That is why someone conceived in Mexico but born in the USA is considered a citizen of the USA, NOT Mexico.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
It's not about enforcement it's about speaking the Truth. And I have just as much right to state what I believe as it lines up with the Word of G-d as you do to criticize it! You are either for Him and His ways or you are not; there is no "secular" in His vocabulary, and He fully intends for heaven and earth to agree, beginning with the one between your ears and the one you're walking around in.
Since you only want what Yeshua stands for......try these words of His.....thy kingdom come, thy will be done, IN EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN. Well, WHERE IS His kingdom? Is it not in you? And if so, then WHY are your words not lining up with His prayer?
You think you're championing "justice" but there is NO JUSTICE but His, just like there is no righteousness but His. If we don't declare what it is, who will? You are not your own, if you are His, you were bought with a price. Peace
Yes, His kingdom is within us, NOT out there in the world, Rbbi. So what happens within US is of concern to God, NOT what is happening out there in the world. When you focus out there in the world, you focus away from God, NOT toward Him. Life is such that we must spend some of our time focused out there in the world or our survival is in jeopardy. But our focus out there should be on what OUR impact is on others, NOT what THEY are doing wrong in God's eyes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Dealing with all the self-righteous confidence of ignorance is frustrating. Some people will never look at and try to understand what the other point of view is.
Exposing such agendas is a part of what discerning is all about.
Amen. nate!
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Old 04-07-2016, 09:37 PM
 
9,169 posts, read 2,775,874 times
Reputation: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Dealing with all the self-righteous confidence of ignorance is frustrating. Some people will never look at and try to understand what the other point of view is.

Exposing such agendas is a part of what discerning is all about.

I think I mentioned this before, but discerning of spirits is a gift of the Spirit, which those that deny the Spirit, do not have. Peace
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Old 04-07-2016, 09:46 PM
 
9,169 posts, read 2,775,874 times
Reputation: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Yes, His kingdom is within us, NOT out there in the world, Rbbi. So what happens within US is of concern to God, NOT what is happening out there in the world. When you focus out there in the world, you focus away from God, NOT toward Him. Life is such that we must spend some of our time focused out there in the world or our survival is in jeopardy. But our focus out there should be on what OUR impact is on others, NOT what THEY are doing wrong in God's eyes.
Amen. nate!

Like it or not, much of G-d's Word is corrective, so expounding upon it, brings that corrective aspect of it into view, and has NADA to do with the person's heart NECESSARILY of a necessity being focused solely on "what THEY are doing wrong" that is doing the expounding. Peace
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