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Old 03-26-2016, 09:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
There is on huge problem with your theory and those are the words of Christ himself and the gospels also showing Jesus was long gone before sunrise.

Matthew 12:38-40
The Scribes and Pharisees Ask for a Sign
38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


Jesus gave 1 sign and 1 sign only that he would be the Messiah and it was that he would be in the grave 3 days and 3 nights, yet many still are teaching a Friday death and Sunday morning resurrection of 1.5 days to be equal to 3 days/3 nights, even though the Jews never counted time like that. Jesus was aware of how they counted time.


-Matthew 27 shows they wanted a guard there until the 3rd day

Matthew 27:62-65
New King James Version (NKJV)
Pilate Sets a Guard
62 On the next day, which followed the Day of Preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, 63 saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’ 64 Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night[a] and steal Him away, and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead.’ So the last deception will be worse than the first.”
65 Pilate said to them, “You have a guard; go your way, make it as secure as you know how.”


-Matthew 28 shows after the Sabbath was ending (Sunset Saturday) and it was going on to the 1st day of the week the angel from heaven came and removed the stone, at this point the guards collapsed.

Matthew 28
He Is Risen
28 Now after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. 2 And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door,[a] and sat on it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. 4 And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.
5 But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

-Luke 24 shows when they got there early at sunrise in the morning the tomb was already empty, so he rose before sunrise, so there goes the whole he rose at sunrise theory.


Luke 24

He Is Risen
24 Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them,[a] came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. 2 But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb. 3 Then they went in and did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 And it happened, as they were greatly[b] perplexed about this, that behold, two men stood by them in shining garments. 5 Then, as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? 6 He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee, 7 saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’”


-Mark 16 shows when they got there at sunrise in the morning the tomb was already empty, so he rose before sunrise, so once again, there goes the whole he rose at sunrise theory.

Mark 16

He Is Risen
16 Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him. 2 Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen. 3 And they said among themselves, “Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?” 4 But when they looked up, they saw that the stone had been rolled away—for it was very large. 5 And entering the tomb, they saw a young man clothed in a long white robe sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed.



-John 20 shows it was dark when they got to the tomb on Sunday and the tomb was empty, so yet another gospel shows he did not rise at sunrise and was already gone

John 20
The Empty Tomb
20 Now on the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. 2 Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”
3 Peter therefore went out, and the other disciple, and were going to the tomb. 4 So they both ran together, and the other disciple outran Peter and came to the tomb first. 5 And he, stooping down and looking in, saw the linen cloths lying there; yet he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; and he saw the linen cloths lying there, 7 and the handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple, who came to the tomb first, went in also; and he saw and believed. 9 For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead. 10 Then the disciples went away again to their own homes.

-All 4 gospels shows the Sabbath was over and it was now the 1rst day of the week and he had already risen from the grave before the sun rose. Mathew 28 is the only one that gives an account of when the angel came and it was when the Sabbath just ended the Sabbath on the 1rst day of the week, so the "he rose at sunrise" is false, so since he rose on Sunday the 17th of Nissan and died on Nisan 14.


He was placed in tomb around 6pm(sunset) on Wednesday and at sunset on Saturday night he rose, which was considered the 1st day of the week, since a new day started at sunset and fulfilled the 3 days/3 nights. All 4 gospels said he rose early in the morning on the 1st day of the week, not at sunrise. They came at sunrise to see he was already gone.

He died @ 3pm on Wed and was placed in the grave right before sunset.
Wed 6PM-Thur 6PM= 1 night/1day
Thur 6PM-Fri 6PM= 1 night/1day
Fri 6PM-Sat 6PM= 1 night/1day


So you have 3 full days & 3 full nights. Jesus gave 1 sign and 1 sign only and it was he was going to be in the grave 3 days and 3 nights. If he wasnt in the grave 3 days & 3 nights aka Fri-Sun, HE IS NOT THE MESSIAH.

(3days/3nights)
14th Wednesday Died @ 3PM and placed in grave right before sunset 6pm
15th Thursday Sabbath(Feast of Unleavened Bread) No work allowed
16th Friday- Bought Spices to anoint the body
17th Saturday Sabbath- No work allowed & went to get more spices after the Sabbath & he Rose from the grave after sunset @ 6pm on 1st day of the week when Sabbath was over

If Jesus wasnt referring to a full 3 days and 3 nights, the best would be a Thursday
(3 days)
14th Thursday Died @ 3PM and placed in grave right before sunset 6pm
15th Friday-Sabbath(Feast of Unleavened Bread): No work allowed
16th Saturday-Sabbath: No work allowed
17th Sunday -Rose from the Grave after the sun went down Saturday, so this is early on the 1st day of the week.

But anyway you look at it, Friday is ruled out.
I'm sure we did this before. Friday is definitively ruled IN because the Sabbath followed immediately. There is not the slightest valid reason to put it oin a Wednesday, other than to make Matthew's prophetic claim true, when one can claim a sort of three days but in no way three nights.

I can see nothing in your post to justify the Crucifixion being on a Wednesday and the guard posted (evidently on the Sabbath) and the resurrection on Dawn, Sunday does nothing to substantiate that idea. You lose more than you gain by closing your eyes to what the gospels actually say and preferring to bet your faith on Matthew's prophetic interpretation.
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Old 03-26-2016, 09:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
Because you need to be able to defend your faith. Jesus said he would be in the grave 3 days and 3 nights and that is the only sign he would give that he was the son of God, so if Christians are teaching him being in the grave for 1.5 days and saying its the same as 3 days, they are making Jesus out to be a liar and actually making him a sinner and not the Messiah.


THIS IS WHY IT MATTERS. Its sad many Christians cant defend their own faith, when when they get a chance and should go to scriptures, they just go the whole who cares or what does it matter route, rather than show how Jesus fulfilled scriptures.

It wont be too long before Christians are saying what does it matter or who cares if we take the Mark of the Beast or not, I still believe in Jesus and thats all that matters regardless of Jesus said.
You put your finger on it. Much Faith is invested in prophecy coming true. Three days can be wangled with a few hours of Friday, but three nights - no way. So the fact is that what happened misses the prophecy and it didn't really come true. That, as you say, is why it is important, because Gospel and indeed Faith -credibility depends.

So, rather than say that Matthew got it wrong (as he did about the 2 donkeys) the crucifixion which happened on the day of preparation for the Sabbath, and never mind how many days of Passover there were or when Jesus celebrated it, has to be shifted (as in your posted diagram) to get the nights in. Sorry, this is wrong. The last supper ended "It was night" the arrest at Gethsemane the same night, trial and crucifixion the next day and Saturday Sabbath following at evening. Thursday supper and arrest, Friday trial and execution, Saturday Sabbath and lying in the tomb; Sunday (first day of the week) rising at dawn, half way through Sunday.

Plain as day, and Wednesday figuring nowhere at all. But the mental gymnastics are endlessly diverting.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-26-2016 at 10:21 PM..
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Old 03-26-2016, 09:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
I'm sure we did this before. Friday is definitively ruled IN because the Sabbath followed immediately. There is not the slightest valid reason to put it oin a Wednesday, other than to make Matthew's prophetic claim true, when one can claim a sort of three days but in no way three nights.

I can see nothing in your post to justify the Crucifixion being on a Wednesday and the guard posted (evidently on the Sabbath) and the resurrection on Dawn, Sunday does nothing to substantiate that idea. You lose more than you gain by closing your eyes to what the gospels actually say and preferring to bet your faith on Matthew's prophetic interpretation.

The Sabbath they are referring to the next day is the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Passover is a Sabbath and so is the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which can occur on any day of the week. If Jesus died on Friday and Rose Sunday morning, he is a liar and NOT the Messiah, because he said he would be in the grave 3 days and 3 nights and that was the one and only sign he gave them that we would be the Messiah. Friday 3pm to Sunday sunrise is 39 hours max and 1.5 days. Its hard to accept this, since its the nonsense teaching of Rome that has been pushed down for thousands of years of Good Friday, but it is incorrect and doesnt line up with scriptures.
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Old 03-26-2016, 10:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
There seems to be quite a bit of mental gymnastics required here. How do we get from the last supper to the garden of Gethsemane to the arrest then to Pilate's court then to king Herod's court then back to Pilate then to be flogged then back to Pilate then to Golgotha all before the Sabbath? I should point out that king Herod did not even exist at this time - he died in 4 BC, ten years before the birth of Jesus in 6 AD.
Uhhh... it is Herod Antipas (Tetrarch of Galilee) who is the Herod here, not his father, King Herod who died in 4 BC (more or less). Note Luke 23.6 whn Pilate shifts Jesus over for Herod to look at because he was a Galilean. Herod (Antipas) as ruler of Galilee (and Peraea) had authority over Jesus as ruler, rather than Pilate.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-26-2016 at 10:15 PM..
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Old 03-26-2016, 10:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NyawehNyoh View Post
If the Jewish day began at sunset, when did the Jewish night begin; at sunrise?

Once again:

Christ limited days to 12 hours, and no more.

†. John 11:9 . . Jesus answered: are there not twelve hours in the day? A man who walks by day will not stumble, for he sees by this world's light.

"this world's light" is the sun. So according to Christ, day is when the sun is up, and night is when the sun is down.

John 11:9 isn't the only passage in the Bible that defines day as when the sun is up, and night as when the sun is down. Gen 1:14 defines days and nights that way too.

Furthermore: Gen 1:16-18 defines night as when the stars are out.

When people fail to calculate the chronology of Matt 12:40 and John 2:19 using biblical days and nights as per John 11:9, Gen 1:14, and Gen 1:16-18, they just end up muddying the waters.

FYI: Days divided into twelve equal periods of sunlight were regulated by what's known as temporal hours; which vary in length in accordance with the time of year. There are times of the year at Jerusalem's latitude when days consist of less than 12 normal hours of daylight, and sometimes more; but when Jesus was here; the official number of hours was always 12 regardless.

I don't exactly know why the Jews of that era divided their days into twelve equal periods of sunlight regardless of the seasons, but I suspect it was just a convenient way to operate the government and conduct civil affairs; including the Temple's activities; e.g. the daily morning and evening sacrifices.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
it is quite simple. Just as today, we talk of a 'day' of 24 hours, including night, which is distinct from 'day' meaning daylight. Today we start a new day at midnight when it is dark. The Jewish reckoning starts a new 24 -hour 'day' when it starts to get dark, and dawn is halfway through the say, as in dawn at the open tomb, half -way through the first day of the week - Sunday.

You are on a loser trying to make the Jewish 24 hour day into 12, just to wangle an extra night into the resurrection -story.
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Old 03-26-2016, 10:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
The Sabbath they are referring to the next day is the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Passover is a Sabbath and so is the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which can occur on any day of the week. If Jesus died on Friday and Rose Sunday morning, he is a liar and NOT the Messiah, because he said he would be in the grave 3 days and 3 nights and that was the one and only sign he gave them that we would be the Messiah. Friday 3pm to Sunday sunrise is 39 hours max and 1.5 days. Its hard to accept this, since its the nonsense teaching of Rome that has been pushed down for thousands of years of Good Friday, but it is incorrect and doesnt line up with scriptures.
It lines up with the facts as given in the gospels, whether you like it or not. Passover reckoning is irrelevant to the Sabbath and the day before it. If you prefer to rewrite the Bible to make it say what you would prefer it to say, be my guest. For myself, I treat Bible text with a bit more respect.
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Old 03-26-2016, 10:55 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Uhhh... it is Herod Antipas (Tetrarch of Galilee) who is the Herod here, not his father, King Herod who died in 4 BC (more or less). Note Luke 23.6 whn Pilate shifts Jesus over for Herod to look at because he was a Galilean. Herod (Antipas) as ruler of Galilee (and Peraea) had authority over Jesus as ruler, rather than Pilate.
I'm glad you brought that up. Herod Antipas, Tetrarch of Galilee. Have a look at how far Galilee is from Jerusalem where Jesus was being tried.



So running over the timeline again, arrested in Jerusalem on Thursday Night/Friday morning, tried, sent to Herod in Sepphoris in Galilee, back to Pilate in Jerusalem, flogged, back to Pilate again then crucified. All in one day! All this before 9 in the morning?

Jesus would indeed have been a subject of Herod Antipas, being a Galilean but he was in Judea at the time.
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Old 03-26-2016, 10:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Simple question: Why does it matter??? Why does anyone care???
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
Simple answer....As a Christian you are supposed to be able to defend your faith from scriptures.
Faith does not need to be defended. It just IS. Either you have faith that Jesus did what He claimed or you don't. Everything else is human vanity and hubris.
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Old 03-27-2016, 12:01 AM
 
Location: Oregon
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Seeing as how it's Christ's crucifixion we're talking about, and seeing as how it's Christ's resurrection we're talking about; then I think the wise thing to do is allow Christ to explain what he meant by days and nights at Matt 12:40 and John 2:19 rather than allow the Jews to explain what he meant.

Now, according to Christ at John 11:9-10, days are when the sun is up, and nights are when the sun is down.

Christ's explanation is corroborated by Gen 1:14 and Gen 1:16-18,

People who accept what Christ and Genesis mean by days and nights are on the winning side. Those who oppose what Christ and Genesis mean by days and nights are on the losing side.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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Old 03-27-2016, 12:05 AM
 
Location: Dothan AL
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I think you all are silly fighting about what was dictated by the Catholic church. The Church decided on what is on the Bible and many have written in much of the text.
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