U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-27-2016, 12:21 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,574 posts, read 5,111,549 times
Reputation: 3914

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
I'm glad you brought that up. Herod Antipas, Tetrarch of Galilee. Have a look at how far Galilee is from Jerusalem where Jesus was being tried.



So running over the timeline again, arrested in Jerusalem on Thursday Night/Friday morning, tried, sent to Herod in Sepphoris in Galilee, back to Pilate in Jerusalem, flogged, back to Pilate again then crucified. All in one day! All this before 9 in the morning?

Jesus would indeed have been a subject of Herod Antipas, being a Galilean but he was in Judea at the time.
Herod was in Jerusalem for Passover Week.

I'm a theist, but I see plenty of timeline problems between the gospels. So what? The details are NOT the message. The overall story is pretty clear. Like when two or three reporters report on the same event. Every so often one can find a discrepancy. That doesn't derail the message for anyone---except regarding the bible a fundamentalist----- who isn't concerned about whether Jesus was crucified, just whether Scripture is correct in the details about it!

Last edited by Wardendresden; 03-27-2016 at 12:29 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-27-2016, 12:44 AM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
5,508 posts, read 2,589,479 times
Reputation: 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Herod was in Jerusalem for Passover Week.

I'm a theist, but I see plenty of timeline problems between the gospels. So what? The details are NOT the message. The overall story is pretty clear. Like when two or three reporters report on the same event. Every so often one can find a discrepancy. That doesn't derail the message for anyone---except regarding the bible a fundamentalist----- who isn't concerned about whether Jesus was crucified, just whether Scripture is correct in the details about it!
Yeah. I'm not talking about the event so much as the reporting. Both Herod Antipas and Pilot were holding court in the middle of the night? Jesus had six trials between midnight and 9 in the morning, with a scourging in between? The reporting is wrong!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-27-2016, 01:35 AM
 
34,440 posts, read 8,865,664 times
Reputation: 4783
Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
I'm glad you brought that up. Herod Antipas, Tetrarch of Galilee. Have a look at how far Galilee is from Jerusalem where Jesus was being tried.



So running over the timeline again, arrested in Jerusalem on Thursday Night/Friday morning, tried, sent to Herod in Sepphoris in Galilee, back to Pilate in Jerusalem, flogged, back to Pilate again then crucified. All in one day! All this before 9 in the morning?

Jesus would indeed have been a subject of Herod Antipas, being a Galilean but he was in Judea at the time.
Nice map. Yes, given that the distances are not that great, Jesus was quite a way from home, as was Antipas (1) and having called in at Peraea on the way, on the border with Nabatea and also part of Antipas' tetrarchy. And John's old recruiting -ground. Not in Pilate's governorship and therefore safe from him. But, as you say, having gone in Judea and caused a ruckus there, he had put himself into Plate's hands. That is of course a bit off topic.

(1)there for the festival, and surely in the Herodian palace, so Jesus would only have to be shuttled from the Praetorium (surely the Antonia fortress) to the old Herodian palace, one tower of which survives, I am told.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDocKat View Post
I think you all are silly fighting about what was dictated by the Catholic church. The Church decided on what is on the Bible and many have written in much of the text.
Yes, it does seem silly. I do have an interest, though, and it is history and Gospel reliability; not Faith or making prophecy work at the expense of factuality.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-27-2016 at 01:54 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-27-2016, 01:48 AM
 
34,440 posts, read 8,865,664 times
Reputation: 4783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Herod was in Jerusalem for Passover Week.

I'm a theist, but I see plenty of timeline problems between the gospels. So what? The details are NOT the message. The overall story is pretty clear. Like when two or three reporters report on the same event. Every so often one can find a discrepancy. That doesn't derail the message for anyone---except regarding the bible a fundamentalist----- who isn't concerned about whether Jesus was crucified, just whether Scripture is correct in the details about it!
I think you are right. ..or ..well, perhaps, as wossname... NyawehNyoh says, we all have to decide how we take it. To be fair there is some mileage in SAAN's spreading of the Passover festival over a few days and Jesus having a different date (The Sanhedrin Pharisees forced the Sadducees to change it, at one point) , and also the idea that Passover as a sorta Sabbath could mean it didn't need t be on Saturday. Yet Sunday, the first day of the week is clear. There is no mention of a day between that and the Sabbath, when they rested (so it sure looks like Saturday) and the crucifixion is the day before, no question. So I think the three days and 2 nights is inescapable, after all. Those who say (on Faith) that it doesn't matter, or it must be three days and nights as per Matthew can say so. I just say that nobody is doing a very good job of selling it to me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-27-2016, 01:57 AM
 
34,440 posts, read 8,865,664 times
Reputation: 4783
Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
Yeah. I'm not talking about the event so much as the reporting. Both Herod Antipas and Pilot were holding court in the middle of the night? Jesus had six trials between midnight and 9 in the morning, with a scourging in between? The reporting is wrong!
There are a lot of implications and discussion there. Like Pilate sending soldiers to arrest Jesus in the small hours. He knew exactly what Jesus had been up to. But that might be better in a thread you could start in Religion rather that here which is more for debating theology.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-27-2016, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 180,157 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Friday is definitively ruled IN because the Sabbath followed immediately.
The identity of that particular sabbath is easily the most common error that people make when attempting to calculate the chronology of the three nights that Christ predicted at Matt 12:40.

Most of us have had it drilled into our heads since childhood that the word "sabbath" always, and without exception, refers to the usual seventh-day repose. However; that word not only applies to the usual day; it also applies to other holy days wherein no servile work is permitted.

For example Yom Kippur [Lev 16:31), the Feast of Trumpets (Num 19:1), and the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Lev 23:5-8)

The Feast of Unleavened Bread (a.k.a. Passover week) is interesting because it has two days wherein no servile work is permitted, one at the beginning of the feast, and another at the end; and while the usual sabbaths are fixed; Passover sabbaths float so that it's actually possible to have two consecutive sabbaths when Passover sabbaths butt up against the usual sabbaths.

That very situation occurred in 1994, 2001 and 2008. Passover fell on Sunday. So Judaism had to observe two sabbaths in a row those years: the usual sabbath on Saturday, followed immediately by a Passover sabbath on Sunday; which for Judaism is normally the first day of the week. At the end of the feast, they did it all over again.

FYI: Some time ago I searched Passover dates back fifty years and could not find even one time when it fell on a Friday. I'm not accusing the Jews of manipulating their religious calendar to make sure Passover never falls on a Friday, but I cannot help but suspect that is exactly what they do.

Anyway; having consecutive sabbaths in the mix throws people off when they try to construct a chronology of the three nights that Christ predicted because it's so easy to mistake Passover's sabbath for the usual sabbath. Bear with me while I flesh this out.

According to John 13:1-2 and John 18:28, the Jews had not yet eaten their Passover when Christ was arrested and put on trial.

According to John 19:13-14, Christ's crucifixion took place on the day when the Jews removed leavened bread from their homes and slaughtered lambs for the Passover dinner that night.

The old covenant's holy days typically kick off at sundown of the previous day; ergo: the Jews' Passover sabbath that year kicked off at sundown of the very day of Christ's crucifixion.

†. John 19:31 . .The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

The Greek word for "high" is megas (meg'-as) which essentially means big. Well yeah of course that particular sabbath was big. It wasn't a usual sabath; no, it was a Passover sabbath.

Now, I feel it only fair to warn everybody that there are some heavy hitters out there, some with Th.D. degrees, who refuse to factor the Jews' Passover sabbath into the three nights that Christ predicted at Matt 12:40; so be prepared for some pretty stiff opposition; from not only the heavy hitters themselves, but also from people who like what they say.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Last edited by NyawehNyoh; 03-27-2016 at 10:06 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-27-2016, 11:53 AM
 
34,440 posts, read 8,865,664 times
Reputation: 4783
It looks to me like you are simply endorsing the Friday crucifixion which was the day of preparation (and theologically, Jesus ought to have died while the Passover lambs were being sacrificed). While of course a Passover 'sabbath' could occur on any day, it looks like this one coincided with the Saturday.

The question arises of why Jesus was eating the passover with his disciples the previous day? I am pretty sure I know the answer, but it doesn't matter. The point is that Jesus (according to the gospels) was executed and taken down as the Sabbath was approaching. If the Passover had already been eaten, then it can only be the normal Sabbath. And it looks like the first day (Sunday) follows on. I do't see that your point about mobile Passovers really serves here.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-27-2016, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 180,157 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
It looks to me like you are simply endorsing the Friday crucifixion here.
Open one of your hands and hold it up in front of your face. It doesn't matter which; either hand will do.

Now close the thumb and the index finger of that hand. That will leave the middle finger, the ring finger, and the pinky finger open.

When you are able to produce a night for each of those open fingers between Friday afternoon and Sunday morning; come back and we'll talk. But as far as I'm concerned, we're done here.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-27-2016, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
5,508 posts, read 2,589,479 times
Reputation: 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyawehNyoh View Post
Open one of your hands and hold it up in front of your face. It doesn't matter which; either hand will do.

Now close the thumb and the index finger of that hand. That will leave the middle finger, the ring finger, and the pinky finger open.

When you are able to produce a night for each of those open fingers between Friday afternoon and Sunday morning; come back and we'll talk. But as far as I'm concerned, we're done here.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Don't give up so quickly. There is a timeline problem to be solved. Not just the three days and nights question but the arrest and crucifixion timeline. There is something not right in the reporting.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-27-2016, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 180,157 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
There is a timeline problem to be solved. Not just the three days and nights question but the arrest and crucifixion timeline. There is something not right in the reporting.
Hijacking is considered bad netiquette. If it is your wish to discuss something other than the mental gymnastics used to get a Friday death and Sunday resurrection to be equal to 3 Days/3 Nights, then you really should start a new thread for it.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top