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Despite the mention of the word 'science,' this thread is not about science, so moderators, please don't close the thread.
Job 26:7 "He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing.
Some Christian believers claim that the Bible provides evidence of scientific knowledge which wasn't known to science until relatively recently. One such claim has to do with Job 26:7 seemingly saying that the earth floats in the vacuum of space with nothing to support it. But that claim ignores not only what Job says elsewhere, but what the Hebrew Bible in general says about the earth being supported on pillars or foundations. In Job 9:6 and 38:4 Job speaks of the earth having pillars or foundations.
Job 9:6 Who shakes the earth out of its place, And its pillars tremble;
Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, 5] Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? 6]To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,
In view of what Job says in 9:6 and 38:4, the view that Job 26:7 speaks of the earth as a globe floating in space cannot be sustained.
And of course Job's statements of the earth being supported by pillars is the view presented in Psalm 75:3, Psalm 104:5, 1 Samuel 2:8, 2 Samuel 22:16, Zechariah 12:1, and Proverbs 8:29.
Psalm 75:3 "The earth and all who dwell in it melt; It is I who have firmly set its pillars. Selah.
Psalm 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.
1 Samuel 2:8 "He raises the poor from the dust, He lifts the needy from the ash heap To make them sit with nobles, And inherit a seat of honor; For the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, And He set the world on them.
2 Samuel 22:16 "Then the channels of the sea appeared, The foundations of the world were laid bare By the rebuke of the LORD, At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.
Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him,
Proverbs 8:29 When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
So in keeping with the general view of the ancient Near East, multiple Hebrew writers speak of the earth having pillars or foundations.
Below is a picture of a Babylonian Kudurru or boundary marker from the Kassite period (c. 1531 BC - c. 1155 BC) depicting a tripartite cosmos in which the earth rests on pillars which arise from a cosmic sea.
Another drawing of the unfinished Kudurru can be seen on page 280 of the following paper which addresses the subject of the Gates and Pillars of Heaven, The Architectural Structure of Cosmos in Greek, Egyptian and Near Eastern Tradiion and Art.
It should not be shocking or disturbing that the ancient Biblical writers generally had the same cosmology as their ANE neighbors. The Bible is not a scientific document and does not claim to be. The Bible pertains to theological matters. Not scientific.
Despite the mention of the word 'science,' this thread is not about science, so moderators, please don't close the thread.
Job 26:7 "He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing.
Some Christian believers claim that the Bible provides evidence of scientific knowledge which wasn't known to science until relatively recently. One such claim has to do with Job 26:7 seemingly saying that the earth floats in the vacuum of space with nothing to support it. But that claim ignores not only what Job says elsewhere, but what the Hebrew Bible in general says about the earth being supported on pillars or foundations. In Job 9:6 and 38:4 Job speaks of the earth having pillars or foundations.
Job 9:6 Who shakes the earth out of its place, And its pillars tremble;
Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, 5] Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? 6]To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,
In view of what Job says in 9:6 and 38:4, the view that Job 26:7 speaks of the earth as a globe floating in space cannot be sustained.
And of course Job's statements of the earth being supported by pillars is the view presented in Psalm 75:3, Psalm 104:5, 1 Samuel 2:8, 2 Samuel 22:16, Zechariah 12:1, and Proverbs 8:29.
Psalm 75:3 "The earth and all who dwell in it melt; It is I who have firmly set its pillars. Selah.
Psalm 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.
1 Samuel 2:8 "He raises the poor from the dust, He lifts the needy from the ash heap To make them sit with nobles, And inherit a seat of honor; For the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, And He set the world on them.
2 Samuel 22:16 "Then the channels of the sea appeared, The foundations of the world were laid bare By the rebuke of the LORD, At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.
Zechariah 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him,
Proverbs 8:29 When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
So in keeping with the general view of the ancient Near East, multiple Hebrew writers speak of the earth having pillars or foundations.
Below is a picture of a Babylonian Kudurru or boundary marker from the Kassite period (c. 1531 BC - c. 1155 BC) depicting a tripartite cosmos in which the earth rests on pillars which arise from a cosmic sea.
Another drawing of the unfinished Kudurru can be seen on page 280 of the following paper which addresses the subject of the Gates and Pillars of Heaven, The Architectural Structure of Cosmos in Greek, Egyptian and Near Eastern Tradiion and Art.
It should not be shocking or disturbing that the ancient Biblical writers generally had the same cosmology as their ANE neighbors. The Bible is not a scientific document and does not claim to be. The Bible pertains to theological matters. Not scientific.
Here are just a few names below that refute your claims. Some of these experts have PHDs in science, biblical literature, ancient history and language. There are many others, of course, that disagree with your posting
Can you give us your credentials? Do you know ancient Greek, Hebrew? Have you studied the manuscripts? Or, did you just did a browser search finding information to suit your worldly ideals?
Discounting and mocking Scriptures is the number one hobby on this forum. You are in the company of God mockers, sexual idolators, and haters of the Church. That is quite the groups you keep company with
Moderator cut: copyright violation
Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 08-17-2019 at 07:37 PM..
Reason: Per TOS, post a snippet and a link
I have never understood why Christians need the Bible to address matters of science. It is spiritual literature, and speaks to spiritual matters mostly by helping us to understand God---who is beyond words, thoughts, and concepts---by using figurative language and story. When you make the Bible into something that it isn't, like a science book, rule book, political book, psychology book, etc. you show it great disrespect, and usually end up with regressive or inaccurate ideas about non-spiritual matters.
I have never understood why Christians need the Bible to address matters of science. It is spiritual literature, and speaks to spiritual matters mostly by helping us to understand God---who is beyond words, thoughts, and concepts---by using figurative language and story. When you make the Bible into something that it isn't, like a science book, rule book, political book, psychology book, etc. you show it great disrespect.
Here are just a few names below that refute your claims. Some of these experts have PHDs in science, biblical literature, ancient history and language. There are many others, of course, that disagree with your posting
Can you give us your credentials? Do you know ancient Greek, Hebrew? Have you studied the manuscripts? Or, did you just did a browser search finding information to suit your worldly ideals?
Discounting and mocking Scriptures is the number one hobby on this forum. You are in the company of God mockers, sexual idolators, and haters of the Church. That is quite the groups you keep company with
I have never understood why Christians need the Bible to address matters of science. It is spiritual literature, and speaks to spiritual matters mostly by helping us to understand God---who is beyond words, thoughts, and concepts---by using figurative language and story. When you make the Bible into something that it isn't, like a science book, rule book, political book, psychology book, etc. you show it great disrespect, and usually end up with regressive or inaccurate ideas about non-spiritual matters.
Here are just a few names below that refute your claims. Some of these experts have PHDs in science, biblical literature, ancient history and language. There are many others, of course, that disagree with your posting
Can you give us your credentials? Do you know ancient Greek, Hebrew? Have you studied the manuscripts? Or, did you just did a browser search finding information to suit your worldly ideals?
Discounting and mocking Scriptures is the number one hobby on this forum. You are in the company of God mockers, sexual idolators, and haters of the Church. That is quite the groups you keep company with
Moderator cut: copyright violation
As you'll recall, in the OP I showed a picture of a Babylonian Kudurru or boundary marker from the Kassite period (c. 1531 BC - c. 1155 BC) depicting a tripartite cosmos in which the earth rests on pillars which arise from a cosmic sea.
The Bible presents this same tripartite view of the cosmos as shown in the following two verses
Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Philippians 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
The three tiered cosmos, heaven above, the earth, and under the earth was a commonly shared view of the cosmos in the ANE. There were certain differences of course, such as in Egypt the earth was thought to float on the cosmic sea rather than being supported by pillars. But as seen, the Biblical writers, in keeping with the Babylonian view, believed the earth to be supported on pillars or foundations. I already posted the pertinent verses in the OP.
I could play scholar versus scholar but the point has already been made. As was the case with the other ancient Near East peoples, the Hebrew's cosmology was that of a flat round earth, supported by pillars, and a hard firmament that was also supported by pillars. Regarding the nature of the firmament, one extra-biblical pseudepigraphical source is 3 Baruch which is believed to have been written sometime between AD 70 and the 3rd century. It asks the question of what the firmament is made of, whether is be clay, brass, or iron.
3 Baruch
3 1 And the angel of the Lord took me and led me to a second heaven. And he showed me there 2 also a door like the first and said, Let us enter through it. And we entered, being borne on wings 3 a distance of about sixty days' journey. And he showed me there also a plain, and it was full of 4 men, whose appearance was like that of dogs, and whose feet were like those of stags. And I asked 5 the angel: I pray thee, Lord, say to me who are these. And he said, These are they who gave counsel to build the tower, for they whom thou seest drove forth multitudes of both men and women, to make bricks; among whom, a woman making bricks was not allowed to be released in the hour of child-birth, but brought forth while she was making bricks, and carried her child in her apron, and 6 continued to make bricks. And the Lord appeared to them and confused their speech, when they 7 had built the tower to the height of four hundred and sixty-three cubits. And they took a gimlet, and sought to pierce the heaven, saying, Let us see (whether) the heaven is made of clay, or of 8 brass, or of iron. When God saw this He did not permit them, but smote them with blindness and confusion of speech, and rendered them as thou seest. [Bolding mine]
In Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus, in his version of the creation account spoke of the firmament as being a crystalline structure.
After this, on the second day, he placed the heaven over the whole world, ans separated it from the other parts; and he determined it should stand by itself. He also placed a crystalline [firmament] round it, and put together in a manner agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for giving moisture and rain, and for affording the advantage of dews. [Bolding mine]
Antiquities of the Jews, book 1, chapter 1, section 1
The Bible itself speaks of the sky being spread out and strong as a cast metal mirror.
Job 37:18 Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a cast metal mirror?
I will however post a lecture by Dr. Michael Heiser who is a scholar of the Hebrew Bible and knows the different languages of the ANE. It's 22 minutes in length.
Despite the mention of the word 'science,' this thread is not about science, so moderators, please don't close the thread.
Job 26:7 "He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing.
In Job 9:6 and 38:4 Job speaks of the earth having pillars or foundation[/b].[/color]
Job is obviously speaking of mankind beliefs in the earth underneath him is of unshakable support in terms of what man has accomplished :
" Which SHAKETH THE EARTH out of her place .." ( Job 9:6 )
God is speaking about mankind's ignorant false sense of security and earthquakes reminding man of the insignificance of Such supposition .
You of all people should understand this .
Job is obviously speaking of mankind beliefs in the earth underneath him is of unshakable support in terms of what man has accomplished :
" Which SHAKETH THE EARTH out of her place .." ( Job 9:6 )
God is speaking about mankind's ignorant false sense of security and earthquakes reminding man of the insignificance of Such supposition .
You of all people should understand this .
Job, along with the other Biblical writers, was expressing his cosmological views, which I believe I have adequately shown to be in keeping with the general cosmological views of the ancient Near East. As Dr. Kyle Greenwood writes,
''Given that the ancient Israelites breathed the same cultural air as their geographical neighbors, it is no wonder that the biblical view of the cosmos has much in common with the broader ancient Near Eastern worldview. In the Bible and in ancient Near Eastern literature and iconography, the earth was considered a flat disk, not a sphere, supported by foundational pillars.''
Scripture and Cosmology, Reading the Bible Between the Ancient World and Modern Science, Greenwood, p. 101
Dr. Greenwood (PhD., Hebrew Union College) is associate professor of Old Testament and Hebrew language at Colorado Christian University and has expertise regarding the subject at hand.
I point you back to post #1 in which I showed a picture of a Babylonian Kudurru or boundary marker from the Kassite period (c. 1531 BC - c. 1155 BC) depicting a tripartite cosmos in which the earth rests on pillars which arise from a cosmic sea. Then, in post #7 I pointed out that the Bible presents this same tripartite view of the cosmos as shown in the following two verses.
Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Philippians 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
The three tiered cosmos, heaven above, the earth, and under the earth was a commonly shared view of the cosmos in the ANE. There were certain differences of course, such as in Egypt the earth was thought to float on the cosmic sea rather than being supported by pillars. But as seen, the Biblical writers, in keeping with the Babylonian view, believed the earth to be supported on pillars or foundations. I already posted the pertinent verses in the OP.
The fact that the Biblical writers had a wrong cosmological view in common with the other ANE peoples in no way jeopardizes the theological message of the Bible. And attempts to force a 21st century scientific cosmology on the Bible which it does not have is cultural imperialism. And it's completely unnecessary. Let the Bible be what it is rather than trying to make it something it is not. And it is not a scientifically accurate document.
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