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Old 03-24-2016, 06:58 PM
 
8,539 posts, read 11,869,117 times
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul

What do you think about this interpretation? I have always been confused by Christians who say that "works" don't figure into salvation. But so much of the New Testament actually STRESSES good works. The idea of "grace" just doesn't make sense either.

There is a difference between good works and religious traditions. (Circumcision, dietary, etc)

In other words, the only thing that really matters is our works. This makes sense. It's the message I get from the New Testament. Which is why I don't even care about traditional Christianity anymore. Or even anything to do with the Bible. I've thrown the Bible into the place where it belongs.
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Old 03-24-2016, 10:47 PM
 
Location: California USA
848 posts, read 570,392 times
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It's both faith and works that is important:

Notice what Paul said:

“You have been saved through faith . . . It is not owing to works, in order that no man should have ground for boasting.”-Ephesians 2:8,9

However, notice it's not that works aren't important. What Paul was saying here is evident in the scripture itself. We, as Christians, do not want to become so puffed up with our perceived accomplishments in serving God that we begin to think that its due to our special abilities or intellect. Rather, Christians should always have the attitude to give the credit to God for what positive work is accomplished in serving him AND the motive behind performing the "works" is important. It should not be to impress others or for boasting.

James makes it clear that faith without works is dead -James 2:14-26

You need both.
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Old 03-24-2016, 10:53 PM
 
3,293 posts, read 1,729,301 times
Reputation: 3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul

What do you think about this interpretation? I have always been confused by Christians who say that "works" don't figure into salvation. But so much of the New Testament actually STRESSES good works. The idea of "grace" just doesn't make sense either.

There is a difference between good works and religious traditions. (Circumcision, dietary, etc)

In other words, the only thing that really matters is our works. This makes sense. It's the message I get from the New Testament. Which is why I don't even care about traditional Christianity anymore. Or even anything to do with the Bible. I've thrown the Bible into the place where it belongs.
You are asking for Biblical interpretation while admitting that you do not care for the Bible? How on earth is someone supposed to have a discussion with you about interpreting the New Testament's message about salvation if you don't even believe the New Testament is a useful way to gain knowledge about salvation?
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Old 03-24-2016, 11:38 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,540 posts, read 6,992,023 times
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The historic Lutheran position may be seen as an over-reaction to the then current Roman practice of squeezing money out of their victims by such things as indulgences and penance, buying artifacts and candles and other ways of stressing a way to earn salvation for self or loved ones. As is most often the case with over-reactions, a false emphasis replaces the error to which the expositors are reacting, in this case an intellectual assent to a position of commitment to the position of Christ rather than what has been called a "lordship" commitment which acknowledges that a commitment to Christ IS a commitment to living the kind of life in community that Jesus taught. It is not that the actions performed in that commitment that bring what is called salvation (usually a bad concept of what salvation from a selfish life is about) but the fact of that changed basis for living and our demonstration of that in our lives. This is really all Paul was saying.
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Old 03-25-2016, 04:09 AM
 
8,539 posts, read 11,869,117 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost View Post
You are asking for Biblical interpretation while admitting that you do not care for the Bible? How on earth is someone supposed to have a discussion with you about interpreting the New Testament's message about salvation if you don't even believe the New Testament is a useful way to gain knowledge about salvation?
Because the message of the Bible is essentially common sense. Why would anyone need it??
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Old 03-25-2016, 04:28 AM
 
2,651 posts, read 1,381,453 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul

What do you think about this interpretation? I have always been confused by Christians who say that "works" don't figure into salvation. But so much of the New Testament actually STRESSES good works. The idea of "grace" just doesn't make sense either.

There is a difference between good works and religious traditions. (Circumcision, dietary, etc)

In other words, the only thing that really matters is our works. This makes sense. It's the message I get from the New Testament. Which is why I don't even care about traditional Christianity anymore. Or even anything to do with the Bible. I've thrown the Bible into the place where it belongs.
Good works didnt save Job
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Old 03-25-2016, 12:43 PM
 
4,221 posts, read 1,962,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul

What do you think about this interpretation? I have always been confused by Christians who say that "works" don't figure into salvation. But so much of the New Testament actually STRESSES good works. The idea of "grace" just doesn't make sense either.

There is a difference between good works and religious traditions. (Circumcision, dietary, etc)

In other words, the only thing that really matters is our works. This makes sense. It's the message I get from the New Testament. Which is why I don't even care about traditional Christianity anymore. Or even anything to do with the Bible. I've thrown the Bible into the place where it belongs.
"Your light must shine before men so they will see your good works and glorify your heavenly Father."

"Whoever believes in me shall do the works I do"

"By your words you'll be justified"

"Man does not live by bread alone but by every word from the mouth of God."
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Old 03-25-2016, 01:26 PM
 
19,952 posts, read 12,963,461 times
Reputation: 1957
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul

What do you think about this interpretation? I have always been confused by Christians who say that "works" don't figure into salvation. But so much of the New Testament actually STRESSES good works. The idea of "grace" just doesn't make sense either.

There is a difference between good works and religious traditions. (Circumcision, dietary, etc)

In other words, the only thing that really matters is our works. This makes sense. It's the message I get from the New Testament. Which is why I don't even care about traditional Christianity anymore. Or even anything to do with the Bible. I've thrown the Bible into the place where it belongs.
this has been around for awhile. I had to read it in Seminary. He is basically mixing Protestantism with Catholic theology. NT Wright has exchanged the idea of imputed righteousness for infused righteousness.

This is Roman Catholic theology. There isn't a lot of "new" here -- it's just Protestants embracing Catholicism.
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Old 03-25-2016, 03:25 PM
 
10,179 posts, read 10,538,351 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hd4me View Post
It's both faith and works that is important:

Notice what Paul said:

“You have been saved through faith . . . It is not owing to works, in order that no man should have ground for boasting.”-Ephesians 2:8,9

However, notice it's not that works aren't important. What Paul was saying here is evident in the scripture itself. We, as Christians, do not want to become so puffed up with our perceived accomplishments in serving God that we begin to think that its due to our special abilities or intellect. Rather, Christians should always have the attitude to give the credit to God for what positive work is accomplished in serving him AND the motive behind performing the "works" is important. It should not be to impress others or for boasting.

James makes it clear that faith without works is dead -James 2:14-26

You need both.

You're basically saying that boasting becomes merely a byproduct to faith by works and therefore being saved by faith alone was only a part of Paul's meaning.


But the Christian apparatchik has bastardized Paul's teaching (if all this is really true) to mean that the ONLY reason to be a follower of Paul's "saved by faith" philosophy (and it IS a philosophy, it is NOT part of Jesus' teachings) is 1. it's an easier path to salvation 2. (and here's its true Achillies' Heel) a person can commit the most atrocious acts all his life hurting people and still be saved with no accountability before God for their prior evil actions (James Porter is a perfect example--he used his priesthood to molest and rape more than 200 children and we can assume that after a lifetime of doing this he finally repented on his deathbed and begged God's forgiveness, died a few minutes later and skated right into God's arms). Atheists on the other hand could spend their entire life doing good for their fellow man--feeding them, clothing them, visiting them in prison--and when they die they go directly to hell and burn for eternity. If Christians cannot see there's is something morally wrong with this Christian paradigm then they really need to reevaluate their humanity.
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Old 03-25-2016, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Texas
1,279 posts, read 1,146,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Or even anything to do with the Bible. I've thrown the Bible into the place where it belongs.

God is going to toss you into the place where you belong.
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