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Old 04-17-2016, 05:25 AM
 
34,872 posts, read 9,010,945 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
If many can come and show proof the Crucifixion was either or a Wednesday or Thursday and the response from most Christians, including pastors of all people are: "what does it matter", "why is it important", "who cares what day he died", "it doesnt matter what day he died", "focus on the resurrection"......why even bother to continue with the whole Good Friday then. The whole point of Good Friday was that Jesus died on a Friday and rose 3 days later, which is actually 1.5 days later.

So if it isnt important the day Jesus died or what does it even matter or why is it important, shouldn't Good Friday no longer matter too?
No. Man made traditions don't. Call it "redemption Thursday" or something. But Tradition means carrying on doing something for no better reason than we have got used to doing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonBeam33 View Post
Dear Christians: This thread is an excellent example of why you lose people and turn people off - nitpicking about what day the crucifixion was, arguing with other people about the tenants of their own faith, pretending to have a better understanding of a religion that is foreign to you than the people who have lived it, the absolutely egotistical need to not only be RIGHT but to prove the other person WRONG (what's that saying about pride?), focusing on ridiculous details that have NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT JESUS SAID.

S.M.H.
One of the points (apart from the Correct Doctrine that perhaps was the intent of the OP} is the ongoing agenda of showing the gospels to be unreliable and thus what Jesus 'Said' is probably not what he said at all. I know the faithful will stiff and blind about this, but you are going to get more and more of it and more and more people come to doubt.
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Old 04-17-2016, 05:34 AM
 
34,872 posts, read 9,010,945 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
They tried to use the scriptures as predictions instead of prophecy. That is divination and is NOT allowed.
...
That is very dodgy, mate. It is branding all prophecy that is declared not to to have come about yet (including the 2nd coming) as "Divination". Back to the drawing board, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The definitions only address what is done. The difference resides in HOW they are applied. Predictions are applied prospectively and establish expectations a priori. Prophecies are applied after the fact and are only validated as prophecy by the future acts that actually occur.
You said a mouthful there,old chum. That is pretty much how all the Gospels 'prophecies' were found. Except that ransacking the OT for anything that even looked like some event in the Gospels wasn't enough. They sometimes had to write a gospel episode to show the prophecy coming about. The death of Judas in both Matthew and Luke is a touchstone example. They had to fiddle the OT to make it work.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 04-17-2016 at 05:51 AM..
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Old 04-17-2016, 05:45 AM
 
34,872 posts, read 9,010,945 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 4:4 View Post
Didn't the Jewish day of Nisan the 14th begin at Sundown?____ The Passover ( Last Supper ) was held Friday after Sundown. Jesus was dead by about 3 0'clock on that same day of Friday, Nisan the 14th.
That leaves parts of Friday, all of Saturday and parts of Sunday.- Matthew 12:40
The fact that the Jewish priests understood Sunday (as the third day) is shown in why they wanted Pilate to make sure Jesus' grave was secure until the third day - Matthew 27:62-66; 28:1-6 - they understood what Jesus was saying.

There is also the scriptural example at 1st Kings 12:5,12 - " go away for three days "
Again, in Bible speak, Not counting three full 24-hr. days, but a portion of those three days when the people came back to him on the ' third day '.

Jonah did Not necessarily have to be in the belly of the BIG fish for a solid-full three days to be counted as three days.

I have heard co-workers who leave work at Friday lunch time referring to a 3-day weekend.
I have heard No one say that they were wrong in saying they had a 3-day weekend.
That's really fiddling the parameters. Half of Friday after lunch is a sight different compared to the last knockings as it is getting to evening. Luke (re Cleophas) refers plausibly to the 'Third day', but even he recognizes that this is the the third day since the arrest, trial and crucifixion, NOT the third day since Jesus was put in the tomb. And that is not the same as Matthew's three days in the bowels of the earth.

Since Luke contradicts Matthew and the timeline really doesn't support a three -day burial, the conclusion is that Matthew's hopeful prophecy is simply wrong. Plus of course, it isn't the first time. Matthew misinterpreted the two donkeys and the actual two he put in his gospel - contradicted by the the three. The facts all point to Matthews 'three days' prophecy being an error on his part. Luke's 'third day' just about works.

The attempt to fiddle in an extra Sabbath are not very plausible and references to lunar calendars, "days" of 12 hours or what Rome declared is irrelevant to what the gospels actually say - that Jesus had risen by the Sunday and the rest of the story looks like a Saturday before that and a Friday crucifixion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
So are you calling Jesus a Fundamentalist then. Its his own words they are repeating.


Matthew 12:38-40
The Scribes and Pharisees Ask for a Sign
38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.”
39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Well...that us the sort of Scripture -literalism -insistence that is the hallmark of Fundyology. If you don't like the label, recognize that the gospels seem to indicate Friday crucifixion, Saturday in the tomb and Sunday resurrection and Matthew's Three days" is over -enthusiastic prophecy- inventing by him. As others have observed, it needn't make any real difference.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 04-17-2016 at 07:11 AM..
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Old 04-17-2016, 06:05 AM
 
34,872 posts, read 9,010,945 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by openmike View Post
I'm being somewhat redundant and may be opinionated without enough facts, but Jesus and the apostles supposedly had the last supper the day before Passover BUT if at sunset actually the START of passover. That would have chronologically been Tuesday evening and Christ was crucified on Passover at least based on antiquities and scripture. So from Wed evening to sunset Thursday is ONE day and when Thursday evening to Friday sunset then Friday sunset to Sat sunset ( Sabbath) is a TOTAL of THREE days so it's conceivable Christ rose at the end cusp of HIS Sabbath not Sunday but discovered risen Sunday morning? There is nothing wrong with celebrating Easter on Sunday as it's all good.
I don't follow that at all. Following the gospels chronology, and tracing back from the one day identified - the 'First day of the' week - Sunday.

Sunday resurrection whether as soon as it got dark or as it was getting light - doesn't matter.

Saturday (Sabbath and probably Passover day - there is no gospel indication of more than one day). During the night Jesus is in the tomb. During the day a tomb guard is placed.

Friday, trial and crucifixion. Friday night before the day - as you point out - last supper and arrest.

So that was not on Thursday, Wednesday, Tuesday or any day other than Friday.

I think this is all rather fun, Like watching mice run round a maze looking for a way out.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 04-17-2016 at 07:13 AM..
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Old 04-17-2016, 07:44 AM
 
4,061 posts, read 3,728,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonBeam33 View Post
It is absolutely pride, but that is no matter.

I ask you again - What exactly are you trying to accomplish? Do you want things to be moved to Good Thursday and Easter Saturday? And what purpose would that serve? Shall we change Christmas too? Do you want all of Christianity to marvel at your discovery? Does your claim actually change Christianity?

From what I understand about Christianity, your job as a Christian is to share your witness and bring people to Jesus- Is that what you think you are doing here?
Many of your responces show how beyond clueless you are.

Since so many Christians say they are following and teaching the Bible, Accomplish would be showing the truths of the Bible and not the traditions of Rome. Stop the blind from leading the blind. Since you refuse to go and research the issue for yourself, your mindset is to try and put down others who have and can show in detail their findings that disprove what you want to hold dearly to...Good Friday.

I'm not trying to have a good Thursday, since I believe he died on a Wednesday and not trying to have a good Wednesday either, but show that
Jesus died on Passover and rose on First Fruits, like the Bible teaches, which can be any day and not have to be Friday, since the whole point of good Friday is to remember Jesus death on a Friday.

There is no such thing as Christmas in the Bible and that is yet another holiday from Rome that you hold dearly to and try to twist scriptures to justify, but I honestly care less what people do around Xmas, since it's a retail holiday more than anything now.

Our jobs as Christians is to worship God in spirit and truth, so bringing people to Christ also includes teaching the truth about him. Jesus is probably looking down and wondering this man Christianity teaches of because it sure isn't him.
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Old 04-17-2016, 03:09 PM
 
1,465 posts, read 400,856 times
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SIMPLIFICATION:

Wednesday: Passover a sabbath
Thursday: Feast of unleavened bread another sabbath and the cause of the confusion, a ONCE a YEAR high holy day
Friday: the normal weekly Saturday sabbath

So we have 3 holy days and sabbaths in a row........those not in the know think the sabbath referred to is the normal Saturday sabbath beginning Friday at sundown........but it is not. The Sabbath day referred to in scripture is the THURSDAY once a year Feast of Unleavened Bread. So 3 Sabbaths in a row.........

Those non-Jewish folks unfamiliar with how things work just stuck Friday in as the day and ran with it. End of story.
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Old 04-17-2016, 05:09 PM
 
37,616 posts, read 25,318,615 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The definitions only address what is done. The difference resides in HOW they are applied. Predictions are applied prospectively and establish expectations a priori. Prophecies are applied after the fact and are only validated as prophecy by the future acts that actually occur.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
But that makes prophesy nothing more than twisting what was written in the past into fitting some later event.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
That is always possible and is probably unavoidable, That is why faith is so problematic.
Making Nostradamus' 'prophesies' come true is easy. I challenge anyone to interpret his writings (or were they word salad ramblings) into a meaningful prophesy of something yet to come then seeing if it happens.
One could take Revelations and find something that 'prophesied' recent events, like WWI and WWII. The problem then becomes determining which event was actually 'prophesied'. Did the 'interpreted prophesy' refer to WWI or WWII? Or was it the conquests of Genghis Khan?
What you call twisting, I would call validation. What I found most convincing was the accuracy with which the Jesus legend confirmed prophecies that were made centuries before His birth about things millennia past His death. YMMV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
That is very dodgy, mate. It is branding all prophecy that is declared not to have come about yet (including the 2nd coming) as "Divination". Back to the drawing board, I think.
It certainly does. The practice of accepting Divination has been a major Faux Pas in Christianity. The Second Coming (as Spirit/Comforter) happened at Pentecost and was missed because of their carnal-minded expectations and ignorance.
Quote:
You said a mouthful there,old chum. That is pretty much how all the Gospels 'prophecies' were found. Except that ransacking the OT for anything that even looked like some event in the Gospels wasn't enough. They sometimes had to write a gospel episode to show the prophecy coming about. The death of Judas in both Matthew and Luke is a touchstone example. They had to fiddle the OT to make it work.
Again, what you call fiddling, I call validation. Your criticism would seem more cogent if Isaiah had not prophesied things that would not occur until centuries and millennia after Christ's death. The early scribes would have had to be unusually prescient to accomplish such fiddling. YMMV.
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Old 04-17-2016, 05:35 PM
 
741 posts, read 272,976 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
But I do have proof.

The current calendar you use was made by Hitlel in the 4th century. I have already shown you this but you refuse to accept it. Just because you don't accept it doesn't mean there is no proof. I got this information from a Jewish website. Which you requested that my proof must come from.

The Jewish Year - Jewish Calendar

Scroll down to Hitlel's Fix and viola there's the proof. The guy that changed your calendar. Now every 19 years your Passover is off from the Passover of the Bible by one month.

Need to know more about Hiltel? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_II

Need know if there was an extra month inserted every 19 years? Consult the Bible. There is no record of them doing any such thing.

Short of Jehovah coming down and telling you Himself, which at this point I doubt you'd believe even Him, that's all I need to prove that today's Jewish calendar is not the same one Moses used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
I doubt you understand the origins and evolution of the lunar calendar...
The fact that your calendar 'evolved' at all and yet don't care let's me know that Hitlel is your final authority. Not the date that God set. That is what I understand. I could care less why it was changed by Hitlel. It wasn't God directed and that's all I care about. You should too...but don't...
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Old 04-17-2016, 05:51 PM
 
Location: Illinois
4,754 posts, read 4,110,011 times
Reputation: 12900
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
Many of your responces show how beyond clueless you are.

Since so many Christians say they are following and teaching the Bible, Accomplish would be showing the truths of the Bible and not the traditions of Rome. Stop the blind from leading the blind. Since you refuse to go and research the issue for yourself, your mindset is to try and put down others who have and can show in detail their findings that disprove what you want to hold dearly to...Good Friday.

I'm not trying to have a good Thursday, since I believe he died on a Wednesday and not trying to have a good Wednesday either, but show that
Jesus died on Passover and rose on First Fruits, like the Bible teaches, which can be any day and not have to be Friday, since the whole point of good Friday is to remember Jesus death on a Friday.

There is no such thing as Christmas in the Bible and that is yet another holiday from Rome that you hold dearly to and try to twist scriptures to justify, but I honestly care less what people do around Xmas, since it's a retail holiday more than anything now.

Our jobs as Christians is to worship God in spirit and truth, so bringing people to Christ also includes teaching the truth about him. Jesus is probably looking down and wondering this man Christianity teaches of because it sure isn't him.
Waay to miss the point.

Attached Thumbnails
Crucifixion was on a Thursday-animated-peanut.gif  

Last edited by MoonBeam33; 04-17-2016 at 06:46 PM..
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Old 04-18-2016, 07:39 PM
 
Location: US
26,385 posts, read 13,994,881 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
The fact that your calendar 'evolved' at all and yet don't care let's me know that Hitlel is your final authority. Not the date that God set. That is what I understand. I could care less why it was changed by Hitlel. It wasn't God directed and that's all I care about. You should too...but don't...
And you know for a fact that G-d did not inspire HILELL to create this calendar?... - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_II
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