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Old 04-18-2016, 08:48 PM
 
741 posts, read 271,105 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
And you know for a fact that G-d did not inspire HILELL to create this calendar?... - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_II
The burden of proof is on you to say that God did. I to not believe that God inspired Hillel to change the calendar. It was working for hundreds of years. It worked for Moses, David, etc. But suddenly it's not right in the AD? I call shenanigans. So now prove Hilell is a prophet.
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Old 04-18-2016, 10:41 PM
 
Location: US
26,248 posts, read 13,915,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
The burden of proof is on you to say that God did. I to not believe that God inspired Hillel to change the calendar. It was working for hundreds of years. It worked for Moses, David, etc. But suddenly it's not right in the AD? I call shenanigans. So now prove Hilell is a prophet.
Nope...the burden is on you and your Christian religion to prove otherwise....
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Old 04-19-2016, 05:38 AM
 
34,466 posts, read 8,876,928 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vf6cruiser View Post
SIMPLIFICATION:

Wednesday: Passover a sabbath
Thursday: Feast of unleavened bread another sabbath and the cause of the confusion, a ONCE a YEAR high holy day
Friday: the normal weekly Saturday sabbath

So we have 3 holy days and sabbaths in a row........those not in the know think the sabbath referred to is the normal Saturday sabbath beginning Friday at sundown........but it is not. The Sabbath day referred to in scripture is the THURSDAY once a year Feast of Unleavened Bread. So 3 Sabbaths in a row.........

Those non-Jewish folks unfamiliar with how things work just stuck Friday in as the day and ran with it. End of story.
No. The Gospels say the resurrection was the first day of the week. Sunday. They identify the day. Following the story back puts the crucifixion on a Friday. If you can't find a persuasive argument for a two - day sabbath, pushing the crucifixion back to Thursday, you are stuck and no way can you plausibly push it back to Wednesday. Fiddling around with the meaning of 'sabbath' doesn't get around what the gospels actually say.

I'll give you this - you actually seem to be trying to address the point instead of some of the irrelevant waffle about Divination and what God says.
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Old 04-19-2016, 05:52 AM
 
741 posts, read 271,105 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Nope...the burden is on you and your Christian religion to prove otherwise....
You say your man is God inspired...I don't believe you. You must prove that the calendar that Moses used was not good enough. Otherwise your posts are just troll answers.
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Old 04-19-2016, 07:45 AM
 
4,039 posts, read 3,701,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
No. The Gospels say the resurrection was the first day of the week. Sunday. They identify the day. Following the story back puts the crucifixion on a Friday. If you can't find a persuasive argument for a two - day sabbath, pushing the crucifixion back to Thursday, you are stuck and no way can you plausibly push it back to Wednesday. Fiddling around with the meaning of 'sabbath' doesn't get around what the gospels actually say.

I'll give you this - you actually seem to be trying to address the point instead of some of the irrelevant waffle about Divination and what God says.
You do realize that you are saying Jesus was in the grave for about 24-26hours. Matthew say the Sabbath was ending and it was about to be Sunday, just like saying at 11:55 on a Saturday that Saturday is ending and its about to be Sunday.

Matthew 28:1-2
28 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.


So if Matthew shows Christ rising either on the end of the Sabbath or right afterwards which would have been considered, Sunday the 1st day of the week and Jesus supposedly died Friday and was placed in the Tomb right before Sunset, that means he was in the grave for a little over 24-26 hours.

Friday 3pm-Christ dies
Friday Sunset 6pm- Christ Placed in the Tomb
Saturday Sunset 6pm and now Sunday (Matt 28:1-2), ealry in the morning, Christ rises from the tomb.

The more and more you look into it, the less and less a Friday Crucifixion makes sense, since he was technically in the grave for 1 day and maybe an hour or two.

Matthew 12:38-40
38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
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Old 04-19-2016, 08:25 AM
 
34,466 posts, read 8,876,928 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
You do realize that you are saying Jesus was in the grave for about 24-26hours. Matthew say the Sabbath was ending and it was about to be Sunday, just like saying at 11:55 on a Saturday that Saturday is ending and its about to be Sunday.

Matthew 28:1-2
28 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.


So if Matthew shows Christ rising either on the end of the Sabbath or right afterwards which would have been considered, Sunday the 1st day of the week and Jesus supposedly died Friday and was placed in the Tomb right before Sunset, that means he was in the grave for a little over 24-26 hours.

Friday 3pm-Christ dies
Friday Sunset 6pm- Christ Placed in the Tomb
Saturday Sunset 6pm and now Sunday (Matt 28:1-2), ealry in the morning, Christ rises from the tomb.

The more and more you look into it, the less and less a Friday Crucifixion makes sense, since he was technically in the grave for 1 day and maybe an hour or two.

Matthew 12:38-40
38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Yes. I am well aware of that. If you had read (or remembered) my argument, it is that the third day does just about work as referenced in Luke and which contradicts Matthew. Thus Matthew's Three days and three nights is a mistake by him owing to trying to make the prophecy fit the three says of Jonah.

Even if you fiddle in a second Sabbath, that only gives you three nights (with daybreak resurrection) and TWO days.

So I see why you say Wednesday, as that will give you three days and three nights if you postulate a resurrection as soon as it is Sunday at evening.

But not only does that not seem to be how the Gospels describe it, Luke contradicts it by talking of the third day since the trial and crucifixion, but your scenario would make that the 5th day. You may save Matthew's prophecy but you will lose all of Luke's resurrection story.
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Old 04-19-2016, 09:45 AM
 
642 posts, read 183,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
Yes. I am well aware of that. If you had read (or remembered) my argument, it is that the third day does just about work as referenced in Luke and which contradicts Matthew. Thus Matthew's Three days and three nights is a mistake by him owing to trying to make the prophecy fit the three says of Jonah.

Even if you fiddle in a second Sabbath, that only gives you three nights (with daybreak resurrection) and TWO days.

So I see why you say Wednesday, as that will give you three days and three nights if you postulate a resurrection as soon as it is Sunday at evening.

But not only does that not seem to be how the Gospels describe it, Luke contradicts it by talking of the third day since the trial and crucifixion, but your scenario would make that the 5th day. You may save Matthew's prophecy but you will lose all of Luke's resurrection story.
RESPONSE:

>>Thus Matthew's Three days and three nights is a mistake by him owing to trying to make the prophecy fit the three days of Jonah.<<

So Matthew's gospel contains errors. What can we conclude about it supposedly being divinely inspired?
Maybe it isn't?.
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Old 04-19-2016, 01:35 PM
 
34,466 posts, read 8,876,928 times
Reputation: 4786
I have no doubt of it.
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Old 04-19-2016, 07:45 PM
 
Location: US
26,248 posts, read 13,915,192 times
Reputation: 1591
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
You say your man is God inspired...I don't believe you. You must prove that the calendar that Moses used was not good enough. Otherwise your posts are just troll answers.
I didn't say that Hillel was inspired....
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Old 04-20-2016, 12:32 PM
 
20,298 posts, read 15,642,764 times
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The day of the week on which Jesus was crucified has long been a topic of debate among theologians. I've always believed that Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, but now think (although not 100% certain) that Friday may very well have been the day of crucifixion that tradition has maintained.

The issue is what did 'three days and three nights,' and what did 'after three days' and 'on the third day' mean to the Jewish mind? In Western thought 'three days and three nights' indicates a 72 hour period of time. But looking at a couple of Scriptures, one from the Old Testament and one from the New Testament indicates that in terms of Jewish thought, the idea of 'on the third day,' and 'after three days,' could actually refer to the same period of time.

In Esther 4:16-5:1 Esther tells the Jews to fast for three days, night and day, and she would do the same, after which time she would go in to see the king. But in fact she goes to see the king on the third day.
Esther 4:16 "Go, assemble all the Jews who are found in Susa, and fast for me; do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my maidens also will fast in the same way. And thus I will go in to the king, which is not according to the law; and if I perish, I perish." 17] So Mordecai went away and did just as Esther had commanded him. 5:1] Now it came about on the third day that Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the king's palace in front of the king's rooms, and the king was sitting on his royal throne in the throne room, opposite the entrance to the palace.
Then, in Matthew 27:62-64 the chief priests and the Pharisees go to see Pilate and bring to his attention the fact that Jesus had said that after three days He would rise again. Now in Western thought, 'after three days' would imply 'on the fourth day.' But the chief priests didn't ask that the tomb be made secure until the fourth day, but 'until the third day.' This indicates that in Jewish thought, the two expressions, 'after three days,' and 'on the third day,' were interchangeable terms referring to the same period of time.
Matthew 27:62 Now on the next day, the day after the preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together with Pilate, 63] and said, "Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I am to rise again.' 64] "Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure until the third day, otherwise His disciples may come and steal Him away and say to the people, 'He has risen from the dead,' and the last deception will be worse than the first."

And then we have the comment of one early church father, Justin Martyr (A.D.100-165), who stated in his 'First Apology,' written c. A.D.150-160, that Jesus was crucified on Friday.
JUSTIN MARTYR -- THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN

CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. [Bolding mine]
Saint Justin Martyr: First Apology (Roberts-Donaldson)
Justin Martyr's comment that Jesus was crucified on Friday has the virtue of being well before the time of Constantine, and before the rise of Roman Catholicism which means that neither Constantine or the Roman Catholic Church can be accused of having originated the tradition of a Friday crucifixion.

I don't have a problem with either a Wednesday, a Thursday, or a Friday crucifixion. But based on the above, it would seem that even though the expression 'three days and three nights' is used, a partial period of any of the three days may fulfill the requirement, even though both a daylight period and a nighttime period are not involved. The issue again being the Jewish mindset as opposed to a non-Jewish mindset.


By the way, I don't expect any of what I said to change anyone's views. It seems that many, or perhaps even most people, at least when it comes to matters of theology, or religious beliefs are unwilling, or unable to adjust their views in light of new information. Things such as pride and fear have a way of getting in the way of objective evaluation and result in an attitude such as, ''I believe what I believe and I am not going to let the facts get in the way of my beliefs.''

Last edited by Mike555; 04-20-2016 at 12:55 PM..
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