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Old 04-20-2016, 01:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The day of the week on which Jesus was crucified has long been a topic of debate among theologians. I've always believed that Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, but now think (although not 100% certain) that Friday may very well have been the day of crucifixion that tradition has maintained.

The issue is what did 'three days and three nights,' and what did 'after three days' and 'on the third day' mean to the Jewish mind? In Western thought 'three days and three nights' indicates a 72 hour period of time. But looking at a couple of Scriptures, one from the Old Testament and one from the New Testament indicates that in terms of Jewish thought, the idea of 'on the third day,' and 'after three days,' could actually refer to the same period of time.

In Esther 4:16-5:1 Esther tells the Jews to fast for three days, night and day, and she would do the same, after which time she would go in to see the king. But in fact she goes to see the king on the third day.
Esther 4:16 "Go, assemble all the Jews who are found in Susa, and fast for me; do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my maidens also will fast in the same way. And thus I will go in to the king, which is not according to the law; and if I perish, I perish." 17] So Mordecai went away and did just as Esther had commanded him. 5:1] Now it came about on the third day that Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the king's palace in front of the king's rooms, and the king was sitting on his royal throne in the throne room, opposite the entrance to the palace.
Then, in Matthew 27:62-64 the chief priests and the Pharisees go to see Pilate and bring to his attention the fact that Jesus had said that after three days He would rise again. Now in Western thought, 'after three days' would imply 'on the fourth day.' But the chief priests didn't ask that the tomb be made secure until the fourth day, but 'until the third day.' This indicates that in Jewish thought, the two expressions, 'after three days,' and 'on the third day,' were interchangeable terms referring to the same period of time.
Matthew 27:62 Now on the next day, the day after the preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together with Pilate, 63] and said, "Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I am to rise again.' 64] "Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure until the third day, otherwise His disciples may come and steal Him away and say to the people, 'He has risen from the dead,' and the last deception will be worse than the first."
And then we have the comment of one early church father, Justin Martyr (A.D.100-165), who stated in his 'First Apology,' written c. A.D.150-160, that Jesus was crucified on Friday.
JUSTIN MARTYR -- THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN

CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. [Bolding mine]
Saint Justin Martyr: First Apology (Roberts-Donaldson)
Justin Martyr's comment that Jesus was crucified on Friday has the virtue of being well before the time of Constantine, and before the rise of Roman Catholicism which means that neither Constantine or the Roman Catholic Church can be accused of having originated the tradition of a Friday crucifixion.

I don't have a problem with either a Wednesday, a Thursday, or a Friday crucifixion. But based on the above, it would seem that even though the expression 'three days and three nights' is used, a partial period of any of the three days may fulfill the requirement, even though both a daylight period and a nighttime period are not involved. The issue again being the Jewish mindset as opposed to a non-Jewish mindset.


By the way, I don't expect any of what I said to change anyone's views. It seems that many, or perhaps even most people, at least when it comes to matters of theology, or religious beliefs are unwilling, or unable to adjust their views in light of new information. Things such as pride and fear have a way of getting in the way of objective evaluation and result in an attitude such as, ''I believe what I believe and I am not going to let the facts get in the way of my beliefs.''
I see what your saying here, but the bible says he placed placed in the tomb right before the sun went down and he rose as the Sabbath was ending or had just ended. So if He died on a Friday, that means he was in the grave for a little over 24 hours, which is just one day.

Im still looking to see where Jews counted any part of a day to be a whole day and why Jesus went out his way to specifically say 3 days AND 3 nights.


Modern day theology has this timeline: FRI-SUN
1 DAYS - Jesus was placed in the tomb before sunset (1 hour)
2 DAYS- Sabbath (24 hours)
3-DAYS- Jesus rose after the Sabbath (1-2 hours according to Matt 28 & 3 other gospels arrived at empty tomb)

We cant even get 2 days out of this or even a day and a half, but this is what is preached as 3 days.
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Old 04-20-2016, 02:07 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,425,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
I see what your saying here, but the bible says he placed placed in the tomb right before the sun went down and he rose as the Sabbath was ending or had just ended. So if He died on a Friday, that means he was in the grave for a little over 24 hours, which is just one day.

Im still looking to see where Jews counted any part of a day to be a whole day and why Jesus went out his way to specifically say 3 days AND 3 nights.


Modern day theology has this timeline: FRI-SUN
1 DAYS - Jesus was placed in the tomb before sunset (1 hour)
2 DAYS- Sabbath (24 hours)
3-DAYS- Jesus rose after the Sabbath (1-2 hours according to Matt 28 & 3 other gospels arrived at empty tomb)

We cant even get 2 days out of this or even a day and a half, but this is what is preached as 3 days.
There were two Sabbaths the week Christ died.
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Old 04-20-2016, 02:15 PM
 
4,039 posts, read 3,698,225 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
There were two Sabbaths the week Christ died.
Yep ,thats why Friday is impossible, as no where did it say Unleavened Bread occurred on Saturday.
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Old 04-20-2016, 02:15 PM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,633,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The day of the week on which Jesus was crucified has long been a topic of debate among theologians. I've always believed that Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, but now think (although not 100% certain) that Friday may very well have been the day of crucifixion that tradition has maintained.

The issue is what did 'three days and three nights,' and what did 'after three days' and 'on the third day' mean to the Jewish mind? In Western thought 'three days and three nights' indicates a 72 hour period of time. But looking at a couple of Scriptures, one from the Old Testament and one from the New Testament indicates that in terms of Jewish thought, the idea of 'on the third day,' and 'after three days,' could actually refer to the same period of time.

In Esther 4:16-5:1 Esther tells the Jews to fast for three days, night and day, and she would do the same, after which time she would go in to see the king. But in fact she goes to see the king on the third day.
Esther 4:16 "Go, assemble all the Jews who are found in Susa, and fast for me; do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my maidens also will fast in the same way. And thus I will go in to the king, which is not according to the law; and if I perish, I perish." 17] So Mordecai went away and did just as Esther had commanded him. 5:1] Now it came about on the third day that Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the king's palace in front of the king's rooms, and the king was sitting on his royal throne in the throne room, opposite the entrance to the palace.
Then, in Matthew 27:62-64 the chief priests and the Pharisees go to see Pilate and bring to his attention the fact that Jesus had said that after three days He would rise again. Now in Western thought, 'after three days' would imply 'on the fourth day.' But the chief priests didn't ask that the tomb be made secure until the fourth day, but 'until the third day.' This indicates that in Jewish thought, the two expressions, 'after three days,' and 'on the third day,' were interchangeable terms referring to the same period of time.
Matthew 27:62 Now on the next day, the day after the preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together with Pilate, 63] and said, "Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I am to rise again.' 64] "Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure until the third day, otherwise His disciples may come and steal Him away and say to the people, 'He has risen from the dead,' and the last deception will be worse than the first."

And then we have the comment of one early church father, Justin Martyr (A.D.100-165), who stated in his 'First Apology,' written c. A.D.150-160, that Jesus was crucified on Friday.
JUSTIN MARTYR -- THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN

CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS.

But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. [Bolding mine]
Saint Justin Martyr: First Apology (Roberts-Donaldson)
Justin Martyr's comment that Jesus was crucified on Friday has the virtue of being well before the time of Constantine, and before the rise of Roman Catholicism which means that neither Constantine or the Roman Catholic Church can be accused of having originated the tradition of a Friday crucifixion.

I don't have a problem with either a Wednesday, a Thursday, or a Friday crucifixion. But based on the above, it would seem that even though the expression 'three days and three nights' is used, a partial period of any of the three days may fulfill the requirement, even though both a daylight period and a nighttime period are not involved. The issue again being the Jewish mindset as opposed to a non-Jewish mindset.


By the way, I don't expect any of what I said to change anyone's views. It seems that many, or perhaps even most people, at least when it comes to matters of theology, or religious beliefs are unwilling, or unable to adjust their views in light of new information. Things such as pride and fear have a way of getting in the way of objective evaluation and result in an attitude such as, ''I believe what I believe and I am not going to let the facts get in the way of my beliefs.''
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
I see what your saying here, but the bible says he placed placed in the tomb right before the sun went down and he rose as the Sabbath was ending or had just ended. So if He died on a Friday, that means he was in the grave for a little over 24 hours, which is just one day.

Im still looking to see where Jews counted any part of a day to be a whole day and why Jesus went out his way to specifically say 3 days AND 3 nights.


Modern day theology has this timeline: FRI-SUN
1 DAYS - Jesus was placed in the tomb before sunset (1 hour)
2 DAYS- Sabbath (24 hours)
3-DAYS- Jesus rose after the Sabbath (1-2 hours according to Matt 28 & 3 other gospels arrived at empty tomb)

We cant even get 2 days out of this or even a day and a half, but this is what is preached as 3 days.
I had hoped that my post clarified the issue. Esther 4:16-5:1 indicates that 'three days and three nights' need not necessarily refer to an entire 72 hour period which of course necessarily means less than a 72 hour period. Esther said she would fast for three days, night and day, and then go see the king. Yet, she went to see the king ON the third day. She went to see the king before the three days, before a 72 hour period of time had completed.

The same with Matthew 27:62-64. In the very same passage, in the very same context, both expressions, 'after three days' and 'until the third day' refer to the same time period. If by saying 'after the three days' the chief priests and the Pharisees had meant after a 72 hour period of time, then they would have requested that the tomb be guarded until the fourth day. But they didn't. They requested that the tomb be guarded until the third day. This indicates that in their mind, 'after three days' meant simply 'until the third day.' This of course indicates partial days.

And that being the case, Jesus being placed in the tomb just before sunset Friday would be day one. Then Saturday of course would be day two. And as soon as the sun set on Saturday, it became Sunday by Jewish reckoning. And so, Jesus could have risen any time after the sun set on Saturday which would mean three days had passed. Not that 72 hours had passed, but simply that Jesus had been in the tomb part of Friday, all day Saturday, and part of Sunday.

What I'm trying to make clear is that by looking at the two passages, it is apparent that something other than a 72 hour period of time is indicated, and that the expression 'days and nights' need not necessarily refer to three 24 hour periods in Jewish thought.

Again, however, I don't have a problem with either a Wednesday or Thursday crucifixion. As I said, I have always believed that the crucifixion took place on Wednesday. But a Friday crucifixion is not absolutely ruled out, and I don't dogmatically hold to a Wednesday crucifixion anymore, but I am comfortable with a Friday crucifixion.
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Old 04-20-2016, 02:46 PM
 
741 posts, read 270,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I had hoped that my post clarified the issue. Esther 4:16-5:1 indicates that 'three days and three nights' need not necessarily refer to an entire 72 hour period which of course necessarily means less than a 72 hour period. Esther said she would fast for three days, night and day, and then go see the king. Yet, she went to see the king ON the third day. She went to see the king before the three days, before a 72 hour period of time had completed.

The same with Matthew 27:62-64. In the very same passage, in the very same context, both expressions, 'after three days' and 'until the third day' refer to the same time period. If by saying 'after the three days' the chief priests and the Pharisees had meant after a 72 hour period of time, then they would have requested that the tomb be guarded until the fourth day. But they didn't. They requested that the tomb be guarded until the third day. This indicates that in their mind, 'after three days' meant simply 'until the third day.' This of course indicates partial days.

And that being the case, Jesus being placed in the tomb just before sunset Friday would be day one. Then Saturday of course would be day two. And as soon as the sun set on Saturday, it became Sunday by Jewish reckoning. And so, Jesus could have risen any time after the sun set on Saturday which would mean three days had passed. Not that 72 hours had passed, but simply that Jesus had been in the tomb part of Friday, all day Saturday, and part of Sunday.

What I'm trying to make clear is that by looking at the two passages, it is apparent that something other than a 72 hour period of time is indicated, and that the expression 'days and nights' need not necessarily refer to three 24 hour periods in Jewish thought.

Again, however, I don't have a problem with either a Wednesday or Thursday crucifixion. As I said, I have always believed that the crucifixion took place on Wednesday. But a Friday crucifixion is not absolutely ruled out, and I don't dogmatically hold to a Wednesday crucifixion anymore, but I am comfortable with a Friday crucifixion.
Mike is right. Rather than looking the current way a day is counted from his perspective, he used the Bible's perspective on how the Jews counted a day. Solid to me.
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Old 04-21-2016, 06:09 AM
 
34,440 posts, read 8,865,664 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
There were two Sabbaths the week Christ died.
Luke contradicts that. Luke 24.

Luke 24.20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place.

I am willing to hear your argument that it doesn't, and an extra Sabbath can be fiddled in, though that would still only give you 2 days and three nights.
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Old 04-21-2016, 07:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
Yep ,thats why Friday is impossible, as no where did it say Unleavened Bread occurred on Saturday.
The failure to designate the day of unleavened bread in no way makes Friday impossible.
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Old 04-21-2016, 07:23 AM
 
34,440 posts, read 8,865,664 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
Mike is right. Rather than looking the current way a day is counted from his perspective, he used the Bible's perspective on how the Jews counted a day. Solid to me.
Yes - again instead of looking at what the Gospels actually say, fiddle the language and pretend they say something else. For no reason other than to save Matthew's three days and nights prophecy. We know how the Jews counted a day and it makes no difference to the story, the days or the nights. It is not three days and nights whether you count the nights in with the days or count the days separately from the nights.

Oh, I know how it works. You desperately want to make the Bible say something other than what it does say and you find some alternative reading or a cultural difference from the way we think in the West, and never mind whether it makes any difference or not - it is glued together with what is claimed and that is enough. Unless someone has a look.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
I see what your saying here, but the bible says he placed placed in the tomb right before the sun went down and he rose as the Sabbath was ending or had just ended. So if He died on a Friday, that means he was in the grave for a little over 24 hours, which is just one day.

Im still looking to see where Jews counted any part of a day to be a whole day and why Jesus went out his way to specifically say 3 days AND 3 nights.


Modern day theology has this timeline: FRI-SUN
1 DAYS - Jesus was placed in the tomb before sunset (1 hour)
2 DAYS- Sabbath (24 hours)
3-DAYS- Jesus rose after the Sabbath (1-2 hours according to Matt 28 & 3 other gospels arrived at empty tomb)

We cant even get 2 days out of this or even a day and a half, but this is what is preached as 3 days.
Correct. The examples Mike gives do mean the same thing and that is because pretty much they ARE the same thing. The third day and night of fasting was actually after three days and nights of fasting.

When the term is applied to the crucifixion, tomb guard and resurrection, the third day 'works' in both Luke and Matthew (resurrection on the third day - Sunday after Friday and Saturday and making an 'extra sabbath' impossible) but it is not three days and nights. Not according to the story. That's why the Esther parallel really doesn't make any difference.

What kind of cheese do you people prefer?

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 04-21-2016 at 07:46 AM..
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Old 04-21-2016, 07:31 AM
 
Location: Houston, TX
13,139 posts, read 7,387,994 times
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Originally Posted by Vf6cruiser View Post
Crucifixion was actually on a Thursday.......due to several confusing factors tradition has it Friday.
I'm so glad you told me. Now that I know, I can finally sleep at night
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Old 04-21-2016, 07:42 AM
 
34,440 posts, read 8,865,664 times
Reputation: 4783
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAAN View Post
Im still looking to see where Jews counted any part of a day to be a whole day and why Jesus went out his way to specifically say 3 days AND 3 nights.
Just this point. Good luck with trying to make part of a day count as a day. But in fact the only reference to three days and three nights is that Matthew prophecy. All the others ascribed as direct Jesus -quotes refer to the 'Third day' or 'after three days'.
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