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Old 03-29-2016, 09:17 PM
 
20,322 posts, read 15,670,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
This is approximately the 114th flounce from a thread that I have seen announced by Mike555.

And I STILL have to stop and admire the head-toss and twirl of pompous, self-righteous outrage.
I'm not off the thread. I simply said that I'm not spending any more time on Matadora, for reasons already given. Nor do you deserve any further attention.
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Old 03-29-2016, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 N, 🌄W
10,085 posts, read 4,171,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
I'm agreeing with you in a technical sense.
Well after-all it's not a historical document just as I've clearly stated all along.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
But if I write a letter to someone describing my experience during Hurricane Ike in 2008 when I was stuck in a church for three days - it's not a historical document, but the events are accurate.
I was living in Houston when Ike hit. I lived 50 miles outside of Galveston in DT Houston. What a storm that was!

The Universe was good to me as well as my mom. My brother had some fence and a tad of roof damage at his home. I am accustomed to Hurricanes...grew up in Houston.

I would have to say the scariest one that I lived through was Hurricane Alicia. We lived 25 miles from Galveston and that was one heck of a Hurricane.
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Old 03-30-2016, 12:50 AM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 N, 🌄W
10,085 posts, read 4,171,565 times
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Thank you for this secret rep message.
Quote:
Saying some prayers for you..
I send peaceful light and love to you as well.
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Old 03-30-2016, 01:49 AM
 
34,686 posts, read 8,945,785 times
Reputation: 4805
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
This is approximately the 114th flounce from a thread that I have seen announced by Mike555.

And I STILL have to stop and admire the head-toss and twirl of pompous, self-righteous outrage.
He does flounce, doesn't he? But I think he is a pretty good poster, nonetheless. At least compared to those who just beg you to have Faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Matadora, you refused to even look at the videos and therefore your opinion doesn't merit any attention. Almost no credible scholar or historian (all of whom you dismissed as ignorant) who studies in the area denies that Jesus existed. And frankly, a person who persists in the myth of the mythical Jesus in light of the historical evidence for His existence, is beyond ignorant.
This is putting an argument that is more than appeal to Faith, but not much more.

I sympathize with Matadora, who has had plenty of experience of apologists who just toss a load of videos at her. We have to say that the apologist should watch the things himself and make the best ponts in post, so we can deal with them without wasting hours sitting through Christian propaganda.

Fact is that Authorities on this matter are too often falling over themselves to prove Jesus is real. I quote a superb book on Matthew but which descended into bonehead apologetics over the 2 donkeys. And I also accept a historical Jesus, but that doesn't mean a Gospel Jesus. This depends on crediting the gospels as reliable, and that is really what is under question.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-30-2016 at 02:00 AM..
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Old 03-30-2016, 03:29 AM
 
20,322 posts, read 15,670,237 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER View Post
This is putting an argument that is more than appeal to Faith, but not much more.

I sympathize with Matadora, who has had plenty of experience of apologists who just toss a load of videos at her. We have to say that the apologist should watch the things himself and make the best ponts in post, so we can deal with them without wasting hours sitting through Christian propaganda.

Fact is that Authorities on this matter are too often falling over themselves to prove Jesus is real. I quote a superb book on Matthew but which descended into bonehead apologetics over the 2 donkeys. And I also accept a historical Jesus, but that doesn't mean a Gospel Jesus. This depends on crediting the gospels as reliable, and that is really what is under question.
Neither the existence of Jesus historically or His resurrection depend upon an appeal to faith. The argument for Jesus' resurrection can be made on the basis of historical evidence. And without even making an appeal to Biblical inerrancy or divine inspiration. And this is what scholars such as Gary Habermas, William Lane Craig, Mike Lacona, N.T. Wright, and others have done. All have written books on the subject, as well as given lectures which by the way have been made available on YouTube.

Gary Habermas (Ph.D., Michigan State) is distinguished professor and chair of the department of philosophy and theology at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va, and is a recognized authority on the resurrection Jesus. In his books and lectures regarding the resurrection of Jesus, he uses what he calls the minimal facts approach which as Habermas explains,
''This approach considers only those data that are so strongly attested historically that they are granted by nearly every scholar who studies the subject, even the rather skeptical ones.''

[The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus, Gary Habermas, Michael Licona, p.44]
The following link is to the article page on his website and concerns scholarly resurrection research -- Dr. Gary R. Habermas - Online Resource for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Feel free to take a look.

The lectures of the above named scholars are available online. I post them below. I have watched all of these, but I am not about to outline the lectures for you. Either watch them, or don't. It's your choice. I really don't care. If you consider it a waste of your time to sit through ''Christian propaganda'' as you call it, then it's your loss.

Gary Habermas.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay_Db4RwZ_M

William Lane Craig.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iyxR8uE9GQ

Michael Lacona.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x37C54nDt7E

N. T. Wright.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnkNKIJ_dnw

I'll also include this lecture by Dr. Timothy McGrew, Professor of Philosophy at Western Michigan University.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHofTmolbi0
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Old 03-30-2016, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 180,761 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
Yes Jesus had a body After the cross which He could walk through walls , appear and disappear
Opponents of Christ's physical resurrection (e.g. the Watch Tower Society) are fond of pointing to what they call fact that a normal human body can't pass through solid objects.

Christ walked on water, restored withered limbs, cured people born blind, healed serious diseases like leprosy, revived the dead, controlled the weather, multiplied fish and bread, turned water into wine, and levitated.

What's one more miracle, more or less? Walking through walls? Disappearing and reappearing? How hard could any of that really be for a man with the powers of God at his disposal?

It's curious how people can say they believe in miracles but yet cannot believe that God is able to make a normal human body pass through solid objects.

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Old 03-30-2016, 09:54 AM
 
20,322 posts, read 15,670,237 times
Reputation: 7433
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyawehNyoh View Post
Opponents of Christ's physical resurrection (e.g. the Watch Tower Society) are fond of pointing to what they call fact that a normal human body can't pass through solid objects.

Christ walked on water, restored withered limbs, cured people born blind, healed serious diseases like leprosy, revived the dead, controlled the weather, multiplied fish and bread, turned water into wine, and levitated.

What's one more miracle, more or less? Walking through walls? Disappearing and reappearing? How hard could any of that really be for a man with the powers of God at his disposal?

It's curious how people can say they believe in miracles but yet cannot believe that God is able to make a normal human body pass through solid objects.

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But Jesus' resurrection wasn't to a 'normal' human body. Don't confuse 'physical' with 'normal.' A 'normal' human body is subject to corruptability and death. Jesus was resurrected never to die again. While His resurrected body didn't have the limitations of a 'normal' body, His body was still physical. He could be touched, He could eat. But His resurrected body was also capable of things which a 'normal' body is not.
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Old 03-30-2016, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 180,761 times
Reputation: 57
-
. 1Cor 15:44 . . It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Watch as I misquote that passage because the difference, though subtle. is significant.

"It is sown a natural body, it is raised up a spirit body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spirit body."

No; it doesn't say spirit body but nevertheless that's what some people have decided it ought to say.

The Greek word translated "spiritual" is ambiguous. It doesn't necessarily refer to the characteristics of a body with the consistency of thin air. Below is a list of spiritual things that bear absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to the bodily chemistry of an angel or a demon.

Spiritual gifts (Rom 1:11)
Spiritual law (Rom 7:14)
Spiritual things (Rom 15:27)
Spiritual people (1Cor 2:15)
Spiritual nourishment (1Cor 10:3)
Spiritual water (1Cor 10:4)
Spiritual rock (1Cor 10:4)
Spiritual blessings (Eph 1:3)
Spiritual music (Eph 5:19)
Spiritual understanding (Col 1:9)
Spiritual housing (1Pet 2:5)
Spiritual sacrifices (1Pet 2:5)

I sincerely believe that the spiritual body spoken of at 1Cor 15:44 is in no way composed of a gaseous substance. Of what material it is composed I don't know; but I do know at least four things about it.

1 The spiritual body is patterned after Christ's glorified body.

. Phil 3:20-21 . .Our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.

2 The spiritual body is capable of dining upon ordinary foods.

. Luke 22:15-16 . . I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you: I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.

3 The spiritual body is capable of imbibing ordinary beverages.

. Matt 26:29 . . I tell you: I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom.

4 The spiritual body is capable of being seen by the naked eye.

. Acts 1:11 . . Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched him go into heaven.

. Rev 1:7 . . Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him.

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Old 03-30-2016, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 N, 🌄W
10,085 posts, read 4,171,565 times
Reputation: 6371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Neither the existence of Jesus historically or His resurrection depend upon an appeal to faith.
Yes they absolutely do as there is no evidence whatsoever AND it's the most absurd ridiculous claim to actually think that a person was resurrected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The argument for Jesus' resurrection can be made on the basis of historical evidence.
Exactly what evidence are you talking about. Simply posting videos and trying to make superheros out of a few scholars does not constitute evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Gary Habermas (Ph.D., Michigan State) is distinguished professor and chair of the department of philosophy and theology at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va, and is a recognized authority on the resurrection Jesus.
Funny calling someone an authority on a fictional character.

You can list as many biased scholars as you want and talk about their books and videos but again this does not constitute evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
In his books and lectures regarding the resurrection of Jesus, he uses what he calls the minimal facts approach which as Habermas explains,
''This approach [i]considers only those data that are so strongly attested historically that they are granted by nearly every scholar who studies the subject, even the rather skeptical ones.''
This is what you call an opinion not evidence. You would be kicked off of any research team if this is how you presented evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
If you consider it a waste of your time to sit through ''Christian propaganda'' as you call it, then it's your loss.
It appears that you have wasted your time and once again have not proven anything here.
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Old 03-30-2016, 11:03 AM
 
9,169 posts, read 2,790,525 times
Reputation: 658
No one has to pull up any documents or provide any man-made proofs whatsoever. I once didn't believe either, but then I met Him, experienced His indwelling presence, and I was changed forever, glory to the Most High G-d!

The proof is, He is risen in us! Just as He was risen in the apostles. The gifts of the Spirit manifest through us, He speaks through us, He heals through us! Anything He wants to do, He can do through willing vessels, and will do more so, when the work in the head of the body is completed and ready to be revealed.

Truly, if they will not believe one rose from the dead, they will not believe. All trees bear fruit in their own season, though. Peace
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