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Old 04-10-2016, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,571 posts, read 31,963,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
AMEN and especially to number 5, yes it is a lie. Our hope is Christ in us, not in flying away. Peace
Whether or not it is a lie remains to be seen. Some believe it, and some do not. I do not have a problem with either group.
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Old 04-10-2016, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,627 posts, read 5,134,941 times
Reputation: 3919
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
The relentless smear campaign against Evangelical Christians on this board is living proof this is already happening.

Even the title of this thread claims: "Evangelical Christians behind America's moral and spiritual decline".
No smear, just facts which, as a fundamentalist, you reject. That is the mode of operandi of all fundamentalists--deny clear facts and create a "we are persecuted" view to present to the world. It makes your religion petty.

Quote:
Much has been said about conservative Christians and their need to retool politically. But that is a smaller story, riding on the back of a larger reality: Evangelicalism as we knew it in the 20th century is disintegrating.

In 2011 the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life polled church leaders from around the world. Evangelical ministers from the United States reported a greater loss of influence than church leaders from any other country — with some 82 percent indicating that their movement was losing ground.
---------
I found that the structural supports of evangelicalism are quivering as a result of ground-shaking changes in American culture. Strategies that served evangelicals well just 15 years ago are now self- destructive. The more that evangelicals attempt to correct course, the more they splinter their movement. In coming years we will see the old evangelicalism whimper and wane.
----------
Studies from established evangelical polling organizations — LifeWay Research, an affiliate of the Southern Baptist Convention, and the Barna Group — have found that a majority of young people raised as evangelicals are quitting church, and often the faith, entirely.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/op...rica.html?_r=0
Writing about himself, the author of the above, John S. Dickerson of Prescott, Arizona says:

Quote:
I grew up hearing tales of my grandfather, a pastor, praying with President Ronald Reagan at the White House. My father, also a pastor, prayed with George W. Bush in 2000. I now minister to my own congregation, which has grown to about 500, a tenfold increase, in the last four years (by God’s favor and grace, I believe). But, like most young evangelical ministers, I am less concerned with politics than with the exodus of my generation from the church.
same source

You, FinnJarber, are the one not getting it. The pastor above does--and he IS a conservative pastor who knows that things must change if the movement is to survive.

But let's look at other reports, too:
Quote:
The facts are that about a thousand evangelicals walk away from their churches every day and most don’t come back. As a whole, American Christians lose six thousand members a day – more than two million a year, while the U.S. population increases by 1.2% -- currently 3.3 million people a year. The real figures are that fewer than seven percent of the country are really evangelicals – only about one in fourteen, not one out of four as they have claimed
http://www.thankgodforevolution.com/node/2049

Quote:
As I address issues related to Evangelical Christianity in this writing, I am well aware that many Evangelicals, many of which I have as close friends, have wonderful hearts, do great things for Jesus, and are not aware of any harm in which they may or may not participate by being connected intimately or in part to Evangelical Christianity. That was true of me when I was an Evangelical pastor. In fact, I would suspect many Christians who would fall into the category of “Evangelical” don’t even realize it, nor have they considered any negative ramifications to the beliefs they hold and the Evangelical culture thereof.

Yet, when I observe something so alarmingly and clearly wrong, harmful, and deceptive, I feel a responsibility to at least articulate what I see and believe. Not with a spirit of condemnation, but with one of deep concern. No one person or group is perfect. Certainly, not I. For so many years as an Evangelical, I didn’t realize what I was truly participating in and what its ramifications truly were in people’s lives.
Is Evangelical Christianity The Wizard Behind the Curtain of America's Moral And Spiritual Decline? - Chris Kratzer

Quote:
We are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West.Within two generations, evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its occupants.
The coming evangelical collapse - CSMonitor.com

In Bad Religion: How We Became a Nation of Heretics, Richard Douthat gives five factors that have contributed to evangelical AND Christian decline in America:
1. the political polarization that has occurred between the Left and Right drew many churches into it (mainline Protestants toward the Left, evangelicals toward the Right). This has greatly weakened the church's credibility in the broader culture, with many viewing churches as mere appendages and pawns of political parties.
2. the sexual revolution means that the Biblical sex ethic now looks unreasonable and perverse to millions of people, making Christianity appear implausible, unhealthy, and regressive.
3. the era of decolonization and Third World empowerment, together with the dawn of globalization, has given the impression that Christianity was imperialistically “western” and supportive of European civilization's record of racism, colonialism, and anti-Semitism.
4. the enormous growth in the kind of material prosperity and consumerism that always works against faith and undermines Christian community.
5. all the other four factors had their greatest initial impact on the more educated and affluent classes, the gatekeepers of the main culture-shaping institutions such as the media, the academy, the arts, the main foundations, and much of the government and business world.

Bottom line, Finn, is that you are no student of the Bible, nor of history, nor are you able to read the signs of the times---which you are supposed to be able to do as a "christian."

However, if you were a Christ follower, then the above five reasons would have nothing to do with you. Evangelicalism began to collapse as it moved away from it's true love, Jesus Christ, and began focusing on the bible as an equal to Christ. The Bible has a lot of human fingerprints in it which no amount of "washing" will cleanse. Jesus is the one without sin, the bible is not. Jesus is the one who died for our sins, the bible did not. Jesus is the one who welcomes us with open arms, frequently the bible does not.

Your biggest lie--is not toward others, but toward yourself.
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Old 04-10-2016, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,571 posts, read 31,963,402 times
Reputation: 9421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
You, FinnJarber, are the one not getting it. The pastor above does--and he IS a conservative pastor who knows that things must change if the movement is to survive.
The fact that you are still talking about US as if there is nothing outside our borders proves you are not getting what I have tried to explain you about the spread of the Gospel around the world. Or maybe you are simply in denial.
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Old 04-10-2016, 01:32 PM
 
20,324 posts, read 15,687,589 times
Reputation: 7441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
AMEN and especially to number 5, yes it is a lie. Our hope is Christ in us, not in flying away. Peace
Rbbi, the event we call the rapture, which is spoken of by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as being 'caught up,' is not a lie. The Greek word is harpazó - 'caught up.' We call it the 'rapture' because the Latin translates the Greek word 'harpazó' as 'rapiemur.' From the Latin rapiemur we get the English term 'rapture' which refers to being caught up.


1 Thess. 4:17 ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ Κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν Κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα. [Nestle Greek New Testament 1904]

ἁρπαγησόμεθα - 'will be caught up.'


1 Thess. 4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur *** illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper c u m Domino erimus [Latin: Biblia Sacra Vulgata] [The censorship program won't allow the use of the word that is in asterisks.]

1 Thess. 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. [NASB]


That is the event known as the rapture. Darby didn't invent it. Darby didn't write 1 Thess. 4:17. The apostle Paul did.

People may disagree on whether the rapture or catching up of the church will be before or after the Tribulation, but to say that there will be no rapture at all when the Bible clearly states that there will be, is simply not justified.
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Old 04-10-2016, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,627 posts, read 5,134,941 times
Reputation: 3919
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
The fact that you are still talking about US as if there is nothing outside our borders proves you are not getting what I have tried to explain you about the spread of the Gospel around the world. Or maybe you are simply in denial.
The fact that you are denying one thousand people a day walk away from evangelicalism shows you don't GET what you are doing in your own homeland.

But then it is obvious that you ARE in denial.

Equating Scripture with Jesus is idolatry. You equate Scripture with Jesus--or would you like to deny that? We can then talk about interpreting Scripture meaningfully.

Until then, you are an idolator.

Your biggest lie is toward yourself.
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Old 04-10-2016, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,571 posts, read 31,963,402 times
Reputation: 9421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
You equate Scripture with Jesus--
Oh, ok, thanks for letting me know. I had no idea....:roll eyes:

Have a nice life. I Hope you figure out the issue with being disgusted all the time.
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Old 04-10-2016, 05:35 PM
 
9,169 posts, read 2,798,860 times
Reputation: 659
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Rbbi, the event we call the rapture, which is spoken of by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as being 'caught up,' is not a lie. The Greek word is harpazó - 'caught up.' We call it the 'rapture' because the Latin translates the Greek word 'harpazó' as 'rapiemur.' From the Latin rapiemur we get the English term 'rapture' which refers to being caught up.


1 Thess. 4:17 ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ Κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν Κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα. [Nestle Greek New Testament 1904]

ἁρπαγησόμεθα - 'will be caught up.'


1 Thess. 4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur *** illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper c u m Domino erimus [Latin: Biblia Sacra Vulgata] [The censorship program won't allow the use of the word that is in asterisks.]

1 Thess. 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. [NASB]


That is the event known as the rapture. Darby didn't invent it. Darby didn't write 1 Thess. 4:17. The apostle Paul did.

People may disagree on whether the rapture or catching up of the church will be before or after the Tribulation, but to say that there will be no rapture at all when the Bible clearly states that there will be, is simply not justified.

Like most things, it has been taken as literal, when something spiritual was meant. It's particularly heinous, because it has kept the church's eyes looking up at the natural clouds, even though the angels themselves, spoke against it. If you want to know the truth, you will have to dig. I recommend starting in Matt. 13, where He tore it down for me.

As for tribulation, that word comes from latin tribulum, which was a threshing instrument to remove the CHAFF from the wheat (good SEED). Where, exactly, is the GOOD SEED now? Peace
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Old 04-10-2016, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
8,627 posts, read 5,134,941 times
Reputation: 3919
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Oh, ok, thanks for letting me know. I had no idea....:roll eyes:

Have a nice life. I Hope you figure out the issue with being disgusted all the time.
I'm not disgusted with myself, but I have a very real sense that that is your problem with yourself.

Lots of people are saying the doings of Jesus, but few are DOING the sayings of Jesus. That's where evangelicals went wrong. They went from doing those sayings to saying the doings. And now, the proof is in the statistics. No matter what you want to say about other nations having great revivals, this nation is fading into oblivion because of the ugly message of evangelicals over the last 40 years.

You wish to demonize me--fine. Do so. But the reports coming from every corner of this country state emphatically that the reason people are fleeing Christ is because of what you are saying--and people are hearing what you say because they aren't seeing you do anything that appeals to spark of God that lies in all of us.
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Old 04-10-2016, 07:38 PM
 
20,324 posts, read 15,687,589 times
Reputation: 7441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Rbbi, the event we call the rapture, which is spoken of by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as being 'caught up,' is not a lie. The Greek word is harpazó - 'caught up.' We call it the 'rapture' because the Latin translates the Greek word 'harpazó' as 'rapiemur.' From the Latin rapiemur we get the English term 'rapture' which refers to being caught up.


1 Thess. 4:17 ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ Κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν Κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα. [Nestle Greek New Testament 1904]

ἁρπαγησόμεθα - 'will be caught up.'


1 Thess. 4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur *** illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper c u m Domino erimus [Latin: Biblia Sacra Vulgata] [The censorship program won't allow the use of the word that is in asterisks.]

1 Thess. 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. [NASB]


That is the event known as the rapture. Darby didn't invent it. Darby didn't write 1 Thess. 4:17. The apostle Paul did.

People may disagree on whether the rapture or catching up of the church will be before or after the Tribulation, but to say that there will be no rapture at all when the Bible clearly states that there will be, is simply not justified.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
Like most things, it has been taken as literal, when something spiritual was meant. It's particularly heinous, because it has kept the church's eyes looking up at the natural clouds, even though the angels themselves, spoke against it. If you want to know the truth, you will have to dig. I recommend starting in Matt. 13, where He tore it down for me.

As for tribulation, that word comes from latin tribulum, which was a threshing instrument to remove the CHAFF from the wheat (good SEED). Where, exactly, is the GOOD SEED now? Peace
Rbbi, proper plain sense interpretation of the Bible requires taking literally anything which reads as literal, and taking as allegorical or symbolic that which obviously is allegorical or symbolic. Nothing about 1Thessalonians 4:17, or of the entire passage justifies taking it as anything but literal.

The Golden rule of interpretation states:
When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word, at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.

Biblical Research Studies Group-The Golden Rule of Interpretation
One of the problems with adopting an allegorical approach to the Scriptures is that when you allegorize something that is plainly to be taken literally you assign to a passage what you think or feel it should mean ''spiritually'' instead of understanding what the writer of the passage intended to convey.
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Old 04-10-2016, 07:57 PM
 
4,851 posts, read 1,471,730 times
Reputation: 1571
And of course flying up in the air to meet Jesus in the clouds was meant to be taken literally
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