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Old 04-02-2016, 08:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
No, I wouldn't have called me a believer. I thought Yeshua was a man, a historical figure, nothing more UNTIL I said at the end of a prayer to G-d, "and Yeshua, IF you can do anything to help me, please do." He HEARD that prayer.....Peace
Which means that you were open to believing. So you must have some proof that your prayer was answered by him.
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Old 04-02-2016, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Twin Cities (StP)
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Quote:
Besides, even Jesus’ opponents implicitly admitted the tomb was vacant by saying that his body had been stolen. But nobody had a motive for taking the body, especially the disciples. They wouldn’t have been willing to die brutal martyrs’ deaths if they knew this was all a lie.
This part makes no sense to me... Why assume that the 12 disciples actually knew anything about the crucifixion and resurrection? The Roman empire had all the reason in the world to take the body. After all, they do have a walled city (country) with 2 billion devout followers.
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Old 04-03-2016, 02:33 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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Originally Posted by hljc View Post
People who are intellectually honest who seek the Lord will find Him .
In other words, if you actually convince yourself of the existence of something... you will find it. Well yes. If you convince yourself that mermaids exist, you will see evidence for mermaids everywhere!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
I agreed. We see atheists here over and over demand evidence. That's not seeking God. That's being defiant with your arms crossed and saying, "Ok God, convince me!"
Yes, why not. Proving your existence to someone that is already convinced that you exist is a no brainer! The clever trick is proving your existence to someone that is convinced that you DON'T exist.

Quote:
Miracles and supernatural events are out there happening every day. One only has to go seek it out to find out if something extraordinary is really going on here.
...and yet those that claim they happen can NEVER provide verifiable evidence for them. WE hear about these 'miracle cures' every minute of every day. Take the 'miracles at Lourdes. The Catholic church has recognized sixty-seven “miracle” cures at the site. Yet there is something like 5,000,000 people a year going ther praying for a miracle cure. 67 cures since 1858 with 5,000,000 visitors a year!! Care to work out the 'success rate on that one lad?

And why do some types of miracles NEVER occur? I tend to agree with the French writer Anatole France who, on a visit to the shrine and seeing the discarded canes and crutches, exclaimed, 'What, what, no wooden legs???'
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Old 04-03-2016, 03:39 AM
 
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I read an article showing that even the sixty -odd Lourdes miracles don't look miraculous under scrutiny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly Addams View Post
This part makes no sense to me... Why assume that the 12 disciples actually knew anything about the crucifixion and resurrection? The Roman empire had all the reason in the world to take the body. After all, they do have a walled city (country) with 2 billion devout followers.
The argument that the disciples were willing to die for their belief in the resurrection seems to me based on a supposition which in turn is based on a particular interpretation of the gospels, which in themselves are not to be relied on.

Here's what I suggest. Jesus was crucified and died. That Paul believed in a resurrection is not denied by me and I must assume that he got that from the disciples.

At the same time, it is demonstrable that it is a spiritual resurrection he is talking about. And that means in his own head. His description of the appearances to the disciples look 'spiritual' too. Or in their own heads.

After the failure of the messianic mission, the disciples were downcast. The Peter got the idea that the body might be dead, but the spirit lives on (a belief held by the Pharisee group, to which the disciples belonged) and would come back soon to finish the job. Paul was in a great hurry to sell Jesusfaith to as many as his fellow citizens as possible before this happened.

The the Jewish war broke out and split the Jewish church from the Roman. I read that as late as the 3rd century, the Nazorenes were asking (without success) to be allowed to choose their own Bishops.

The disciples did not doe for a lie. They were gradually obliterated by one.

The empty tomb? Well, Mark has no resurrection account, but just has an empty tomb. We can discount the synoptic angel as John doesn't have it at all. So at best the body was removed and returned to Galilee. That empty tomb in the only thing common to all four accounts. The angel walks on (in the synoptics) and Explains that Jesus has risen. This is nothing like good enough, so the writers each invent contradictory stories of Jesus appearing in the body - Luke trying to base his story on Paul's account of Jesus in the head.
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Old 04-03-2016, 03:58 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle144 View Post
Lee Strobel was never an atheist despite what he says and, after reading some of his books, he clearly wasn't a very good journalist either because, if you have read his 'The Case For Christ' you would know that it consists largely of 'interviews' of prominent Christian apologists but no interviews of secular scholars of any note, just Christian apologist. Now a good 'journalist' will interview people on both sides of the argument...but not Strobel! I have lost count od the number of apologists that have insisted that Strobel wrote 'The Case For Christ' when he was an atheist. Lies! If you read the last two paragraphs at the bottom of page 14, he makes it quite clear that he wrote it as a fully committed Christian.

He's also a liar who describes Jerry Vardaman as an 'eminent archaeologist'. 'The fact is that Jerry Vardaman is not an 'eminent' archaeologist, he’s a complete and utter crackpot who has been described by his peer professional archaeologists as 'Iinsane' — who fabricated his 'coin' story beyond all reasonable belief.
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Old 04-03-2016, 07:01 AM
 
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Lee Strobel was as much an atheist as CS Lewis was. They were both raised in Christian households which means that they were both exposed to the doctrine at an impressionable age. So this tells me how trustworthy Christian apologists tend to be.
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Old 04-03-2016, 07:20 AM
 
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And the lot of you STILL don't get it. It's not about the intellect, it's about the Spirit of G-d. You have a spiritual experience, which is out of your hands to reproduce or fake in anyway.

G-d changes you from the inside out; all man's attempts to change involve the outside in. G-d is in charge of your spirit man; you can't touch him, you can see him, you can't save him, but G-d can and when He does no one can tell you it didn't happen, because you've EXPERIENCED something in the core of your being where no man can touch, not had a thought to change personal doctrines, lifestyles, philosophies, religions, lack of religion, ect. Peace
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Old 04-03-2016, 07:32 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Lee Strobel was as much an atheist as CS Lewis was. They were both raised in Christian households which means that they were both exposed to the doctrine at an impressionable age. So this tells me how trustworthy Christian apologists tend to be.
Exactly! Yet apologist persist in these nonsense stories about 'atheists seeing the light'.
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Old 04-03-2016, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
And the lot of you STILL don't get it. It's not about the intellect, it's about the Spirit of G-d.
We see it more as being about 'Liars For Jesus'.

Quote:
You have a spiritual experience, which is out of your hands to reproduce or fake in anyway.
G-d changes you from the inside out; all man's attempts to change involve the outside in. G-d is in charge of your spirit man; you can't touch him, you can see him, you can't save him, but G-d can and when He does no one can tell you it didn't happen, because you've EXPERIENCED something in the core of your being where no man can touch, not had a thought to change personal doctrines, lifestyles, philosophies, religions, lack of religion, ect. Peace
People that have converted to Hinduism or Shintoism or any one of the myriad of other religions would say the say the same about their gods. Would you accept that as valid evidence for their god being real?
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Old 04-03-2016, 07:43 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
We see it more as being about 'Liars For Jesus'.

People that have converted to Hinduism or Shintoism or any one of the myriad of other religions would say the say the same about their gods. Would you accept that as valid evidence for their god being real?

Again, it's like this. I live on border of Indiana and Ohio and as such have been to Ohio many times, yet I live in Indiana. NO ONE on the face of the earth could tell me and make me believe I have never been to Ohio. Why? BECAUSE I'VE EXPERIENCED IT. And therefore, if you are trying to tell me the opposite, you are the liar, and not me. It's like that.


No, because they could not have had the same experience, because they don't have the same fruit. The law of the seed. Peace
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