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Old 04-02-2016, 12:19 PM
 
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And the head El-o-hym layeth a charge on the man, saying, `Of every Rhod of the garden eating thou dost eat;
and of the Rhod knowing Good&Evil, thou dost eat of it, NOT, thou shalt surely die in the day that thou eatest thereof'

And the serpent (named Good&Evil) said unto the woman,
"Ye shall eat of it; not ye shall die for knowing El-o-hym".

Who was right? God or the serpent?
Did they die or not?

Maybe they were both right.
Maybe their bodies did die when they ate from the tree but their consciousness was uploaded to a computer.

Last edited by granpa; 04-02-2016 at 01:27 PM..
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Old 04-02-2016, 01:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
And the head El-o-hym layeth a charge on the man, saying, `Of every Rhod of the garden eating thou dost eat;
and of the Rhod knowing Good&Evil, thou dost eat of it, NOT, thou shalt surely die in the day that thou eatest thereof'

And the serpent (named Good&Evil) said unto the woman,
"Ye shall eat of it; not ye shall die for knowing El-o-hym".

Who was right? God or the serpent?
Did they die or not?

Maybe they were both right.

Maybe their bodies did die when they ate from the tree but their consciousness was uploaded to a computer.
God was right of course. Adam and Eve both died immediately. But the death was spiritual death - a loss of relationship with God. As a result of spiritual death they both later . . . much later, died physically.

The Bible mentions seven different categories of death.

1.) Spiritual death: Ephesians 2:1- Paul was addressing people who were physically alive but who had at one point, before they received Jesus as Savior, been spiritually dead.

2.) Physical death: Luke 16:22; 2 Cor. 5:8.

3.) Carnal death: Rom. 8:6 - The believer out of fellowship due to unconfessed sin in the life.

4.) Positional death: Rom. 6:5-14; Col. 3:3 - The believer is identified with Jesus in His death. (He is also identified with Jesus in His resurrection).

5.) The Second death: Rev. 20:11-15 - The unbeliever's spiritual death perpetuated forever in the lake of fire.

6.) Operational death: James 2:26; Rev. 3:1 - The unproductive spiritual life of the believer who is continually out of fellowship.

7.) Sexual death: Heb. 11:12; Rom. 4:19 - Self explanatory.
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Old 04-02-2016, 01:27 PM
 
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And, the death of death.
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Old 04-02-2016, 03:16 PM
 
2,651 posts, read 1,382,033 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
And the head El-o-hym layeth a charge on the man, saying, `Of every Rhod of the garden eating thou dost eat;
and of the Rhod knowing Good&Evil, thou dost eat of it, NOT, thou shalt surely die in the day that thou eatest thereof'

And the serpent (named Good&Evil) said unto the woman,
"Ye shall eat of it; not ye shall die for knowing El-o-hym".

Who was right? God or the serpent?
Did they die or not?

Maybe they were both right.
Maybe their bodies did die when they ate from the tree but their consciousness was uploaded to a computer.
would also explain how they lived 900 years
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Old 04-04-2016, 04:15 AM
 
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For me, this bit of the story refutes it. How would the first pair even know what death was, if they had never seen it? The story assumes that they know what death is. It also assumes that this is something that they would want to avoid. Why would they have an instinctive fear of it?

If the death was something other than biological death, why wasn't that explained? It just makes no sense.

It's the old story of the Invented Story giveaway that I have noted in my other Hobby the novels of Van Gulick. We get some clue or remark that the author knows about but the character couldn't. The 'die' warning only works for those who already know all about death. It would leave Adam bewildered and needing explanation.

Of course, aside from that, the evident fact that Adam doesn't die, but is banished from Eden and made to do farming, makes the serpent the truth -teller and God the liar. So the 'death' threat has to be turned into some metaphor that be made to actually pan out. But note that there is no mention of losing immortality or a 'spiritual death' as a punishment, but simply having to work hard.
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Old 04-04-2016, 05:07 AM
 
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Lets get this straight. If God is all mighty then he generates all....good and evil. It is for us to sort things out- It gives us mere mortals something to do during a life time.
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Old 04-04-2016, 06:40 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
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I would say that physical death occurred as well.

Death, in general, implies separation. For example, when a branch is cut from a tree, what is the point of its death? Is it the point when we see the brown crinkly leaves and the brittle branch, or when it is actually separated from its source of life? The point of death is when it is cut and separated from the life sustaining sap. The brown leaves are indicators that death has already occurred.

In other words, the fact that we do physically expire from the earth means that we are already dead (Eph. 2:1)... that we were already separated from the source of life - which is God.

What God did through Christ is provide a means for new life - first spiritually, and in the future with new bodies.
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Old 04-04-2016, 07:10 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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I get a kick out of the different "explanations" for the contradiction. If it was "spiritual death," how did physical death enter the world?

But I have to tell you that the idea that we are zombies because of Adam's sin takes the cake.

The Judeo-Christian preoccupation with innocence is amazing to me, like growing up is not something to appreciate. We should retain the mind of a 4 year old our whole lives?
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Old 04-04-2016, 07:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
I get a kick out of the different "explanations" for the contradiction. If it was "spiritual death," how did physical death enter the world?

But I have to tell you that the idea that we are zombies because of Adam's sin takes the cake.

The Judeo-Christian preoccupation with innocence is amazing to me, like growing up is not something to appreciate. We should retain the mind of a 4 year old our whole lives?
There is no contradiction here. Physical death is the result of spiritual death. But spiritual death was the immediate result of Adam's disobedience.

Was it not made clear in my other post that there are various categories of death?
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Old 04-04-2016, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,198 posts, read 14,090,937 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
I get a kick out of the different "explanations" for the contradiction. If it was "spiritual death," how did physical death enter the world?

But I have to tell you that the idea that we are zombies because of Adam's sin takes the cake.

The Judeo-Christian preoccupation with innocence is amazing to me, like growing up is not something to appreciate. We should retain the mind of a 4 year old our whole lives?

Death entered the world through sin.

Regarding innocence... with reference to God's standard, there is none. Romans 3:9 - there is none righteousness. That includes the children.
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