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Old 04-07-2016, 05:02 PM
 
9,169 posts, read 2,790,525 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
Only the Bible should determine when something is literally. Not doctrine.


Adam and Eve already knew what bad was. They didn't need a tree to know bad. Jesus knows what bad is does that make him evil? God knows what bad is, that make Him evil? I'm guessing you don't believe in free-choice.


No he isn't. Creation was good before anything went wrong in Eden.


Horrible translation. Disaster or calamity should be used. Those translations support an evil god. Who does He bring disaster on? Evil.


All of the scriptures you presented are one-sided and you ignore all the ones I posted as contradictory. There are no contradictions in the Bible and we don't change what they say to fit doctrine. You say not to read the Bible as literal unless you tell me what is literal. I reject that. The Bible tells me what is literal. I have no reason from the Bible to change the scriptures I posted from what they literally say. It certainly will not be some Googled website.

In order, your last paragraph sentences. 1) How are they any more one-sided than yours? And you ignored mine as well. 2) I agree. I didn't change anything. 3) I said no such thing. I told you essentially, that there are literal interpretations and there are types and shadows abounding. 4) The bible does not tell you what is literal, and as a matter of fact it ALL has a spiritual meaning. 5) Pity. You might learn something had you bothered to google what I said. Peace


And PS. Free will is an illusion, also a tool. God is sovereign.
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Old 04-07-2016, 05:11 PM
 
741 posts, read 271,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
In order, your last paragraph sentences. 1) How are they any more one-sided than yours? And you ignored mine as well. 2) I agree. I didn't change anything. 3) I said no such thing. I told you essentially, that there are literal interpretations and there are types and shadows abounding. 4) The bible does not tell you what is literal, and as a matter of fact it ALL has a spiritual meaning. 5) Pity. You might learn something had you bothered to google what I said. Peace


And PS. Free will is an illusion, also a tool. God is sovereign.
That's the whole issue. You don't believe in free-will. It makes sense now. I guess you better hope your god puts you on the right side in the end because if not, you can't change it....what a miserable way to live. Well, I don't want to discuss free-will because I'm sure my scriptures will be ignored on that topic too.

Also, I never ignored your scriptures. You use eisegesis when using the Bible. Thus the few scriptures you did pose were out of context. Cherry picked. What is the difference between exegesis and eisegesis?

You pick a topic then go find one liners in the Bible that support your doctrine. I do not do that. I use 2 Timothy 3:16 as my username for a reason. I really do think that ALL scriptures are for setting things straight.
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Old 04-07-2016, 05:22 PM
 
8,652 posts, read 11,904,465 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
I know there are those that believe that the book of Job is not based on actual people. That the event was a work of Moses meant to be symbolic. However, there is nothing in the Bible that says that Job isn't real or that Satan isn't real. So to find that belief not to be true. This is not to say that mankind is without fault. The Bible says mankind certainly have done their own damage to their fellow man from their own wicked desires. However, Satan certainly stokes those wicked desires. We must do as Jesus did when confronted with Satan. Stand our ground and obey God.
There is nothing in Harry Potter that says that the story isn't real or that Harry isn't real.

The "historicity" of the Bible stories has been disproven again and again. Even by Jesus.
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Old 04-07-2016, 05:39 PM
 
9,169 posts, read 2,790,525 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
That's the whole issue. You don't believe in free-will. It makes sense now. I guess you better hope your god puts you on the right side in the end because if not, you can't change it....what a miserable way to live. Well, I don't want to discuss free-will because I'm sure my scriptures will be ignored on that topic too.

Also, I never ignored your scriptures. You use eisegesis when using the Bible. Thus the few scriptures you did pose were out of context. Cherry picked. What is the difference between exegesis and eisegesis?

You pick a topic then go find one liners in the Bible that support your doctrine. I do not do that. I use 2 Timothy 3:16 as my username for a reason. I really do think that ALL scriptures are for setting things straight.

No, I don't believe in free will. I don't because it's not true, but there was a time when I did. And no, it's not miserable. Miserable is living in fear. G-d being sovereign is liberty because if He's in control you give up trying to be, and quit praying apart from His perfect will.

This is free will. Imagine yourself driving a car in your chosen direction. You can only see what's directly in front of you. But G-d can see from a much higher vantage point because He sees the end from the beginning. So when He wants to change your direction He just puts up an emergency road block, but to you down below, it looks like you made the choice to go another direction based on what you can see.
So the illusion of free will is preserved, but the reality is much different.

No, my scriptures were not out of context, and cherry picked is what everyone says when they are presented with some they can't reconcile to what they believe. Peace

Last edited by Rbbi1; 04-07-2016 at 06:09 PM..
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Old 04-07-2016, 10:23 PM
 
1,489 posts, read 613,668 times
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Hi 2Tim3:16

Rbbi1 is right.

Free will is a 'doctrine of man', with respect to how believers like to construct ordered / patterned belief systems, i.e. Doctrines. It is only apparent free will to us, because we see things from our perspective - from God's view there's no such thing. Seeing things God's way is what having the mind of Christ is all about - that's what we need, and hence why pressing in to The Word, Jesus, is most critical. And I think it is (one of) your moment/s right here - God has seen your zeal for His word, scripture, and He's going to further increase you in His Word, the Spirit.

Here are some references - weigh and test what you read:

Is Man a Free Moral Agent - J. Preston Eby

And the last post on the following thread - I find Julie Ferwerda's prose on this very fitting, so just quote it:

From the Bible: The greatest commandments (Mark 12:29-31)
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Old 04-08-2016, 07:32 AM
 
741 posts, read 271,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Age-enduring View Post
Hi 2Tim3:16

Rbbi1 is right.

Free will is a 'doctrine of man', with respect to how believers like to construct ordered / patterned belief systems, i.e. Doctrines. It is only apparent free will to us, because we see things from our perspective - from God's view there's no such thing. Seeing things God's way is what having the mind of Christ is all about - that's what we need, and hence why pressing in to The Word, Jesus, is most critical. And I think it is (one of) your moment/s right here - God has seen your zeal for His word, scripture, and He's going to further increase you in His Word, the Spirit.

Here are some references - weigh and test what you read:

Is Man a Free Moral Agent - J. Preston Eby

And the last post on the following thread - I find Julie Ferwerda's prose on this very fitting, so just quote it:

From the Bible: The greatest commandments (Mark 12:29-31)
There are plenty of free will threads. I'm not getting on that marry-go-round again. I'm not taking part in another one. Let's just say I hope the DVD that you think your life is ends well. I on the other hand have a choice of my own story despite what you or anyone believes. There is belief and truth. The truth is we all have a choice. Even a choice if we believe in freewill or not.
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Old 04-08-2016, 07:43 AM
 
787 posts, read 297,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
"Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love." - 1 John 4:8

The Bible says the complete opposite to what was said above. According to the Bible to view God that is He is NOT love is actually the 'cracked lens'.

I'd beware of reasoning that God is not love. This was the same reasoning one of Job's so-called 'comforters' used. Bildad suggested that God thinks that mankind's integrity is always under a microscope and that God ways finds fault in people. That God is not way to high of a being to concerned with us. All of them kept telling Job that his problems came from being unrighteous. But it wasn't. They were very harsh on Job and felt they needed to be harsh because they thought God was treating Job harshly. When really Satan was behind everything. Job realized that is was the love God that was going to be his redeemer and savior. Job 19:25 says, "For I well know that my redeemer is alive; He will come later and rise up over the earth."

Perhaps what CL meant is God is not only love. Because that is true. God is also righteous but that is not His dominating quality. Otherwise, John would have said, 'whoever is not righteous can't know God because God is righteous.' There is no way we could know God if that were true since it is God that deems a person righteous or not. Verse 18 of that same chapter says, "And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and the one who remains in love remains in union with God and God remains in union with him." The Bible is clear, we don't come to God out of righteousness. We don't remain in union with God because of righteousness. Everything, even righteousness is guided by that quality of love. If it wasn't and instead it was guided by righteousness then God would be counting every flaw and we would always be on unfair scales seeing as we have it in our nature to 'miss the mark'. “If errors were what you watch, O Jah, O Jehovah, who could stand?” - Ps 130:3 Errors are not what God watches because no one would be able to stand.

Beware the reasoning of Job's companions. They were not looked at favorably by God at the end of Job. In fact, it was God that told Job to make a sacrifice in their behalf for their treatment of Job. That was a loving and forgiving God that let those companions off the hook.

Like Job's companions and millions of others now living seem to miss is that being loving and forgiving is righteous. "Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous. It does not brag, does not get puffed up,does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things." - 1 Cor 13:4-7
Love is not the answer.

I am instantly opposed and usually outraged by references to motivations by the Most High of love. Here's why.

Although any sincere student of scripture can recall at least a half dozen references to the love of God from memory, they are IRRELEVANT to the modern culture of America - perhaps the rest of the world as well. The Protestant Church in America has been accused by its own theologians and (some) leadership that it's become irrelevant to our society. Secular voices declare it daily. Why? Because the love of God is misrepresented.

God is first and foremost righteous. Love springs from that. Love is an off-shoot of God's righteousness just like the actions of a caring parent for a difficult young child. One gets up in the middle of the night or at inconvenient times to care for the needs of the child and rarely does one do so because of mushy feelings of affection. Love is not simple passion. Love is responsible actions for the betterment and well being of another person. Love is not selfish. (see definition of it in Corinthians)

The great misfortune of the modern age is that secular and religious definitions of 'love' are nearly always selfish, passionate and demanding. The word is misrepresented. The act has been corrupted. According to the present attitude - God loves humanity without bounds and limits. According to this attitude WE are more important than moral responsibility, divine law, or even God's purposes in the universe. Man has become the center of all things and God is expected to bow before us because WE are of supreme value. According to the Bible, nothing could be further from the truth.

The reason why Jesus died on the cross has been debauched. Preachers today do not themselves understand what happened there or why. Neither do they preach it or write about it. Jesus died because righteousness demanded it. Jesus loved because righteousness demanded it and Jesus rose again from the grave because divine righteousness demanded it. Not all who watched that event would enter paradise and not all who hear the story will enter either.

The crucifixion is one of the most filthy gruesome and disgusting stories in a book filled with ugly stories. There are no pretty words that can describe it, yet Protestantism today seeks always to put lipstick on a pig - as it were. You know the story. Put lipstick on a pig and its still a pig. That's why Protestantism is irrelevant. It tries to put a pretty face on an very very ugly episode in human history. It was the day mankind conspired to murder God.

Jesus died because of sin - not because of love. Most of the words in our language that were once forbidden in polite society are forbidden no more. The F bomb has been replaced by the N word. Patriotism has been corrupted into aggressive international militarism. Freedom as a political reality is unknown. Sin is worshipped and approved as the satisfying act of a passionate spirit. And LOVE, particularly the love of heaven, has been corrupted to justify it. THIS is why I oppose the word.

"I love you" as a phrase has been so commonly applied that it no longer has substance. It means less than "good morning" or "sorry about that". Love with respect to divine motivations does not exist except as an excuse to SIN.

This tells the tale and this tells all. The love of God NEVER justifies sin. Until and unless SIN is understood, the word should not be used. According to the Bible LOVE implies spiritual responsibility on the part of God and man.

Responsibility is another unpopular word at present. No one is responsible for anything. Yet the Biblical teaching on the subject links love with spiritual and earthly responsibility and SIN.

There is NO love from God when a sinner rejects God's love. Divine love is not automatic and it is not a license to sin. Never was. Never will be. The only prayer God will hear is the prayer of repentance. When uttered by a humble spirit - the reply of heaven is love.......but not till then. Ever.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
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Old 04-08-2016, 07:57 AM
 
741 posts, read 271,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
No, I don't believe in free will. I don't because it's not true, but there was a time when I did. And no, it's not miserable. Miserable is living in fear. G-d being sovereign is liberty because if He's in control you give up trying to be, and quit praying apart from His perfect will.

This is free will. Imagine yourself driving a car in your chosen direction. You can only see what's directly in front of you. But G-d can see from a much higher vantage point because He sees the end from the beginning. So when He wants to change your direction He just puts up an emergency road block, but to you down below, it looks like you made the choice to go another direction based on what you can see.
So the illusion of free will is preserved, but the reality is much different.

No, my scriptures were not out of context, and cherry picked is what everyone says when they are presented with some they can't reconcile to what they believe. Peace
But God doesn't take the wheel from you. Which if we have no freewill we don't even drive the car.

I have had so many freewill discussions I can't even count them all. I have weighed all the evidence, analogies and scriptures that can be heard. What I have determined is that no one can believe in a loving God and believe that we don't have a choice. Love is the reason we have freewill and that is something that those that don't believe in freewill hate to hear. "Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love." 1 John 4:8. This explains so much to me. If there is no freewill then we are robbed of the loving choice to follow and love God. If is forced if there is no freewill. I don't except that those that don't love God don't have a choice to do so. What a horrible belief. Thank Jehovah, it's not true.

Joshua 24:15 "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve..."
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Old 04-08-2016, 09:24 AM
 
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8 “Look, I go forward, but He is not there,
And backward, but I cannot perceive Him;


9 When He works on the left hand, I cannot behold Him;
When He turns to the right hand, I cannot see Him.

10 But He knows the way that I take;
When He has tested me, I shall come forth as gold.


11 My foot has held fast to His steps;
I have kept His way and not turned aside.


12 I have not departed from the commandment of His lips;
I have treasured the words of His mouth more than my necessary food.


From Job 23
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Old 04-08-2016, 09:38 AM
 
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Can you find a loving God in the book of Job?

No.
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