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Old 04-05-2016, 06:52 AM
 
123 posts, read 84,516 times
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This has really changed my view on how to view suffering. If we picture how good God was and loved us, by the cross and see all of heavens beauty and Gods beauty forever, we will feel unworthy. What could we have done to show love back? Maybe go through trials and pain all for Jesus, praise God for everything good and the bad and don't become bitter and turn away. Be like Job and still love God in this fallen world. Does this make sense, am I on to something ?

http://youtu.be/9FZ5uM_YfB4

This short video is of a pastor who had a vocal injury, he praises God and it's very hard for him. A part of me would be very broken and upset and doubt that God is good, or when prayers go unanswered and hurt so much, how can we say thank you? It's very tough. It's hard, anyone have personal experience and has anyone been blessed in the end like job?

I painfully admit I am afraid of trusting, to the point of dying and maybe my help or blessings wouldn't come this side of life. Could I still trust and love God? When I see others more blessed and less blessed then me. What's the basis of our desires, where do we stop asking or expecting having faith? Or just be quiet and thankful and don't get our hopes up. A lot of questions
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Old 04-05-2016, 08:20 AM
 
741 posts, read 270,995 times
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Originally Posted by Djmagnum View Post
This has really changed my view on how to view suffering. If we picture how good God was and loved us, by the cross and see all of heavens beauty and Gods beauty forever, we will feel unworthy. What could we have done to show love back? Maybe go through trials and pain all for Jesus, praise God for everything good and the bad and don't become bitter and turn away. Be like Job and still love God in this fallen world. Does this make sense, am I on to something ?

http://youtu.be/9FZ5uM_YfB4

This short video is of a pastor who had a vocal injury, he praises God and it's very hard for him. A part of me would be very broken and upset and doubt that God is good, or when prayers go unanswered and hurt so much, how can we say thank you? It's very tough. It's hard, anyone have personal experience and has anyone been blessed in the end like job?

I painfully admit I am afraid of trusting, to the point of dying and maybe my help or blessings wouldn't come this side of life. Could I still trust and love God? When I see others more blessed and less blessed then me. What's the basis of our desires, where do we stop asking or expecting having faith? Or just be quiet and thankful and don't get our hopes up. A lot of questions
We have to zoom out and look at the whole understanding as to what God is trying to accomplish here with allowing these trials. It is to settle a dispute of the highest nature. In Job 2:4 it says, "But Satan answered Jehovah: “Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life. But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face.” As we know God doesn't do these horrible things Himself but He does allow them. But why?

Is Satan right? Does man only do what God says out of selfishness to save himself? Or do they do it because they love God? How could God prove it? Note how is that verse Satan expanded the challenge to go beyond just Job when Satan said 'a man will give everything for his life'. If we read the whole account of Job we see these 'so called friends' trying to explain to Job why all of these bad things are happening to him. They tell Job that he must be wicked, that he must be too arrogant and that God doesn't really care what happens to him. Do we ever think this way? Are Job's so called companions' reasoning and Satan's reasoning finding it's way into our hearts?

When we refuse to stop loving God because of what Satan puts on us we are giving answer to Satan who is taunting God and us that we don't really love each other. Satan insist that both God and all mankind are just selfish beings. God selfish with His power and humans selfish for their possessions. “Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, so that I can make a reply to him who taunts me.” Prov 27:11

Satan is always the accuser, God isn't. We are right now answering those accusations and all of heaven is witnessing the answers from all of us. My trials make me draw closer to my God for comfort. I love proving Satan wrong. Do you?

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort.” - 2 Cor 1:3

Last edited by 2Timothy316; 04-05-2016 at 09:25 AM..
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Old 04-05-2016, 01:08 PM
 
123 posts, read 84,516 times
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Awesome viewpoint I like it. I want confirmation and just knowing this is the case besides just faith. I want to experience this and have God actually prove it to me. It would be special
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Old 04-05-2016, 02:20 PM
 
19,952 posts, read 12,963,461 times
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Originally Posted by Djmagnum View Post
This has really changed my view on how to view suffering. If we picture how good God was and loved us, by the cross and see all of heavens beauty and Gods beauty forever, we will feel unworthy. What could we have done to show love back? Maybe go through trials and pain all for Jesus, praise God for everything good and the bad and don't become bitter and turn away. Be like Job and still love God in this fallen world. Does this make sense, am I on to something ?

http://youtu.be/9FZ5uM_YfB4

This short video is of a pastor who had a vocal injury, he praises God and it's very hard for him. A part of me would be very broken and upset and doubt that God is good, or when prayers go unanswered and hurt so much, how can we say thank you? It's very tough. It's hard, anyone have personal experience and has anyone been blessed in the end like job?

I painfully admit I am afraid of trusting, to the point of dying and maybe my help or blessings wouldn't come this side of life. Could I still trust and love God? When I see others more blessed and less blessed then me. What's the basis of our desires, where do we stop asking or expecting having faith? Or just be quiet and thankful and don't get our hopes up. A lot of questions
I'm not sure the message of Job is that God just wants to looooooooove on us. The point is that he is Holy and He is sovereign.
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Old 04-05-2016, 02:33 PM
 
741 posts, read 270,995 times
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Originally Posted by Djmagnum View Post
Awesome viewpoint I like it. I want confirmation and just knowing this is the case besides just faith. I want to experience this and have God actually prove it to me. It would be special
Consider the account of Jacob. It's hard to sum his life up in so few sentences but he had a rough go of things.

If anyone would like to read the whole account of Jacob it can be found in Genesis chapters 25-50.

Starting in chapter 27 we see Esau, his own brother give Jacob a death threat. It's so serious that that Jacob has to flee to Haran. In chapter 29 Jacob meets the love of his life and works 7 years for her father so he can marry her. Only to be tricked by her father into marring Rachel's old sister Leah. Goes back to work for another 7 years for a total of 14 years just to marry his beloved Rachel. In chapter 32 Jacob wrestles with an angel looking demanding that God bless him. That fight leads to a hip injury that will stay with him for the rest of his life. In Chapter 34 one of his daughters is raped and his own sons deceive him. In chapter 35 his beloved wife Rachel dies and his father dies. In chapter 37 Jacob's own sons lie to their father telling him that his favorite son Joseph has been killed.

Hardship after hardship. However, through all of this was Jacob still faithful to Jehovah, his God? Yes, he was. In fact so faithful that God gave Jacob a name change. To the name Israel. Did you know that the name Israel is used in the Bible over 2750 times? Jacob got that name from God when Jacob was wrestling with that angel when Jacob was asking God to bless him. The only name perhaps more used in the Bible is God's own name. What an honor. We also know that the son that he thought was dead was actually alive and well. In fact his son brought them into a save and secure land. But we know Jacob died...is that the end of the story?

No. Because from Jacob's own bloodline came a savior that will allow the righteous to live again. That no matter what Satan threw at Jacob and every faithful person from there, Jesus still came and saved all of mankind. Jesus declared: “That the dead are raised up even Moses disclosed, in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.” (Luke 20:27, 37, 38) So to the Almighty God, Jacob/Israel is not really dead. Not as long as his God is alive. Jesus also said, "“For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is. . . . The hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out.”—Joh 5:26-29. Jacob will live again. Raised not to a life of strive again though but to a life of youth and no fear from pain or death.

Revelation 21:4 says, "And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” We must be patient for these things. Why? Because God is merciful. Why would I say that? The Bible tells us why, "Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.” (2 Pet. 3:9) Can we all show patience with God even with Satan and his onslaught while God allows everyone a chance to change their lives to His paths?

Do not worry, we have help. God will help us endure.

1 Peter 5:6-11 says it all, "Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God, so that he may exalt you in due time, while you throw all your anxiety on him, because he cares for you. Keep your senses, be watchful! Your adversary, the Devil, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone. But take your stand against him, firm in the faith, knowing that the same kind of sufferings are being experienced by the entire association of your brothers in the world.But after you have suffered a little while, the God of all undeserved kindness, who called you to his everlasting glory in union with Christ, will himself finish your training. He will make you firm, he will make you strong, he will firmly ground you. To him be the might forever. Amen."

See how much sense that scripture makes when you know Job and Jacob's accounts?

We have been dealing with Satan for what, 20 years? 30? 80? God has had to endure Satan's taunts for thousands of years. But the days of Satan's rulership are coming to it's end. Soon mankind will be free of that murderer. Satan's accusations have just about been answered fully. Yes there are people that still love God even though they have had a tough life. They want God's leadership and they want His Son to be their King.

Last edited by 2Timothy316; 04-05-2016 at 02:54 PM..
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Old 04-05-2016, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Gettysburg, PA
1,562 posts, read 1,509,764 times
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Originally Posted by Djmagnum View Post
This short video is of a pastor who had a vocal injury, he praises God and it's very hard for him. A part of me would be very broken and upset and doubt that God is good, or when prayers go unanswered and hurt so much, how can we say thank you? It's very tough. It's hard, anyone have personal experience and has anyone been blessed in the end like job?
Sort of. Nothing at all like Job's experience but it's been quite a difficult time for me and my fiancé when he had been trying to find a job here. For about 11 months; I can't keep track of all the times when things seemed so promising, but for some inexplicable reason nothing materialized. I know God is in control of all things and it was hard not to doubt God's goodness toward us and to trust that all things actually were working together for our good... when, time after time it seemed that God was purposefully snatching the promise of a job away from us. It was hard not to form images of God being some maniacal chess-master laughing over the misery of his pawns.

I think however, in spite all of this, it is important to keep the right perspective. What is it that we do deserve from God? Nothing at all but eternal judgment. He has every right and would be very just to keep us until the end of my finance's life from finding a job. He doesn't owe that to us. We actually deserve far worse. What God has done, however, because he is not only just he is also merciful, is to give us the gift of his Saviour. Instead of what we are experiencing in this world, this rather should be the focus of our entire lives--that he has given us Christ so that we are able to spend eternity in fellowship with him.

Personally it is my view that much of what believers suffer in this life is so that God can draw them away from this life so as to make them focus more on the next. My fiancé and I discussed this as opportunity after opportunity never materialized. If God were to give us a pleasant life and much of what we desire, would we continue to lean heavily upon him? Or would we be too caught up in the joys of this life, and slowly let that take over much of our thoughts and time? I seem to recall a verse perhaps from Proverbs or Ecclesiastes, something along the lines of "give me neither riches or poverty lest I become too full of life and forget God, or become too poor and be driven to sin in order to survive".

This is an involved topic and my incredibly long stretch of work days leaves my mind unable to do much justice to your topic. Some times though is real hard to trust God, especially when things are rough. It may be that God uses these trials as well to prove our faiths to ourselves. It is easy to praise God when things are going wonderful in life and you have no problems. But when the rubber meets the road, how is it that we will feel about him who is the cause for everything that transpires in our lives?
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Old 04-05-2016, 10:02 PM
 
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Only the bravest souls even sit there.
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Old 04-06-2016, 06:38 AM
 
779 posts, read 295,449 times
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Originally Posted by Djmagnum View Post
This has really changed my view on how to view suffering. If we picture how good God was and loved us, by the cross and see all of heavens beauty and Gods beauty forever, we will feel unworthy. What could we have done to show love back? Maybe go through trials and pain all for Jesus, praise God for everything good and the bad and don't become bitter and turn away. Be like Job and still love God in this fallen world. Does this make sense, am I on to something ?

http://youtu.be/9FZ5uM_YfB4

This short video is of a pastor who had a vocal injury, he praises God and it's very hard for him. A part of me would be very broken and upset and doubt that God is good, or when prayers go unanswered and hurt so much, how can we say thank you? It's very tough. It's hard, anyone have personal experience and has anyone been blessed in the end like job?

I painfully admit I am afraid of trusting, to the point of dying and maybe my help or blessings wouldn't come this side of life. Could I still trust and love God? When I see others more blessed and less blessed then me. What's the basis of our desires, where do we stop asking or expecting having faith? Or just be quiet and thankful and don't get our hopes up. A lot of questions
The problem with your assessment of the book of Job, as well as the rest of the Bible, is that you are viewing its message through a cracked lens. The name of the warped lens through which you are viewing the scriptural revelation of God's nature is - love. Contrary to the American perception of the Almighty, God is not love. God is about righteousness. Divine love springs from His righteous nature. It is not the foundation of it. Righteousness is the reason God does anything. Look at scripture that way and you'll begin to understand what its about. On the other hand, if you want to buy marshmellow love go to the grocery store.

The Americanized version of love is not the same thing as that described in the pages of the Bible. Neither is it that which has been accepted by the community of nations for millennia (or even that of America a generation ago). American culture has corrupted the very nature and definition of love and its view of what God is all about too. The American definition and expectation of love is carnal, perverted, conceited and spiritually destructive. It rarely if ever considers something other than selfish passion. In short it's all about me, me, me and me.

That kind of love doesn't exist in the pages of the Bible. It is not God's nature. The message of the book of Job is very simple, but also very difficult to swallow.

Personal suffering and loss, as caused by the sovereign decisions of God, are none of our business.

Job is asked a very pointed question; shall we accept good at the hand of God and not evil? God sits on His throne and decides what will and will not affect a man's life. Man is usually not consulted with regard to these decisions.

God will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy.

Can you issue a summons and haul God into court? You cannot. Can you legislate against His laws? You cannot. None of us can. God does not owe anyone an explanation or an apology for anything He does. These are hard things to endure - not fit for children, certainly not fit for the childish mind of American culture. It is reality, very messy reality indeed.

If you cannot accept the spiritual or moral principles taught in the book of Job, then look at it as a simple work of literature. The author of any book will treat his characters according to his opinion of them. If he likes his characters he will drag them through terrible circumstances with great reward at the end. If an author hates his characters he will cause them a bad end. The book of Job demonstrates that the author (God) loves his main character (Job) because after all the trouble Job suffers he is prospered in the end. Finally consider that no human author EVER justifies himself or his writing to the characters in his book. If it's good enough for human why can't God do the same when He writes His story upon the living flesh of man?

THIS IS WHY the great principles of Christian faith are to show mercy justice and to live humbly before God.

Without humility none can see the Kingdom of God. It's all about the righteousness justice and mercy of God - NOT whatever the current definition of American love may be.

The proper lens to view and interpret scripture is the righteousness and sovereignty of the Almighty. Unless you look at it this way you will not understand a single word.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

Last edited by Choir Loft; 04-06-2016 at 06:58 AM..
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Old 04-06-2016, 07:35 AM
 
741 posts, read 270,995 times
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The problem with your assessment of the book of Job, as well as the rest of the Bible, is that you are viewing its message through a cracked lens. The name of the warped lens through which you are viewing the scriptural revelation of God's nature is - love. Contrary to the American perception of the Almighty, God is not love.
"Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is love." - 1 John 4:8

The Bible says the complete opposite to what was said above. According to the Bible to view God that is He is NOT love is actually the 'cracked lens'.

I'd beware of reasoning that God is not love. This was the same reasoning one of Job's so-called 'comforters' used. Bildad suggested that God thinks that mankind's integrity is always under a microscope and that God ways finds fault in people. That God is not way to high of a being to concerned with us. All of them kept telling Job that his problems came from being unrighteous. But it wasn't. They were very harsh on Job and felt they needed to be harsh because they thought God was treating Job harshly. When really Satan was behind everything. Job realized that is was the love God that was going to be his redeemer and savior. Job 19:25 says, "For I well know that my redeemer is alive; He will come later and rise up over the earth."

Perhaps what CL meant is God is not only love. Because that is true. God is also righteous but that is not His dominating quality. Otherwise, John would have said, 'whoever is not righteous can't know God because God is righteous.' There is no way we could know God if that were true since it is God that deems a person righteous or not. Verse 18 of that same chapter says, "And we have come to know and believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and the one who remains in love remains in union with God and God remains in union with him." The Bible is clear, we don't come to God out of righteousness. We don't remain in union with God because of righteousness. Everything, even righteousness is guided by that quality of love. If it wasn't and instead it was guided by righteousness then God would be counting every flaw and we would always be on unfair scales seeing as we have it in our nature to 'miss the mark'. “If errors were what you watch, O Jah, O Jehovah, who could stand?” - Ps 130:3 Errors are not what God watches because no one would be able to stand.

Beware the reasoning of Job's companions. They were not looked at favorably by God at the end of Job. In fact, it was God that told Job to make a sacrifice in their behalf for their treatment of Job. That was a loving and forgiving God that let those companions off the hook.

Like Job's companions and millions of others now living seem to miss is that being loving and forgiving is righteous. "Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous. It does not brag, does not get puffed up,does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things." - 1 Cor 13:4-7

Last edited by 2Timothy316; 04-06-2016 at 07:46 AM..
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Old 04-06-2016, 09:47 AM
 
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There's a very good reason why Job went through what he did. He was to receive the DOUBLE PORTION. Peace
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