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Old 04-11-2016, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,938 posts, read 9,691,048 times
Reputation: 2409

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
No one doubts that Jesus lived on the earth.
There are many millions of people that do not believe that JtC existed never mind 'lived on Earth'.

Quote:
There are written accounts of people who saw Him raised up from the dead.
Where...other than your Bible. Please supply these 'written accounts'.

Quote:
So even though I live 2000 years after the event and I see no physical evidence - there is enough basic semblance of evidence that SOMETHING took place regarding Jesus being raised from the dead back then.
No there isn't. There is absolutely NO evidence other than the Bible...and that is a self serving document that has been proven to be not much more than fable, fiction and fraud.

Quote:
I posted in the politics area about a guy in the UK who came up with the Islamophobia term. He had faith that Muslims would integrate into the mainstream like other immigrants from other countries. 20 years later - he says he is totally wrong. What happened? He had faith in his assertion? The evidence that continued to mount proved his theory as false.
Irrelevant.

Quote:
For believers, it's more than the resurrection - it's that Jesus still lives today and He lives in us. We have an internal relationship with Him... as He promised for those who come to Him by faith. So it's not that we solely believe in the resurrection 2,000 years ago and that's it. It's a continuing relationship with Him that strengthens our faith in what took place back then.
...but you have to prove a resurrection and you have no verifiable evidence that JtC ever existed let alone what happened to him or where he is now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Wrong. Even though we've never seen God (faith comes in here), there is enough evidence to support a belief in a creator.
What...tree, clouds, fluffy kittens. Please supply your verifiable evidence for your 'creator'.
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Old 04-11-2016, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,938 posts, read 9,691,048 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
People doubt that we really landed on the moon, for instance.
Yes, people do believe some stupid things don't they.
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Old 04-11-2016, 03:15 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,310 posts, read 14,170,795 times
Reputation: 10134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
There are many millions of people that do not believe that JtC existed never mind 'lived on Earth'.
And there are millions of people that do. It's not made up out of thin air.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Where...other than your Bible. Please supply these 'written accounts'.

No there isn't. There is absolutely NO evidence other than the Bible...and that is a self serving document that has been proven to be not much more than fable, fiction and fraud.

Irrelevant.

...but you have to prove a resurrection and you have no verifiable evidence that JtC ever existed let alone what happened to him or where he is now.
Just curious... why do I have to prove anything? What's the point? You don't have to agree with me.
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Old 04-11-2016, 04:03 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,295 posts, read 20,040,776 times
Reputation: 2110
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
It doesn't matter what I think. I have figured that out from being on C-D since 2009.

And look - I suggested what to read and you came back with entirely different verses. That's how much "what I think", matters.
Your answer here is proof that you cannot answer Mystics question, and proof that you rely on others teaching you about the bible and God . It's sad really because there is something far greater within you and if you let go of idolising the bible, and listened to what God has planted in you, you would be able to explain your experience of the Holy Spirit. The spirit of love is Christ and by it we know that which is of God.
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Old 04-11-2016, 04:43 PM
 
20,329 posts, read 15,701,005 times
Reputation: 7462
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
There are many millions of people that do not believe that JtC existed never mind 'lived on Earth'.

Where...other than your Bible. Please supply these 'written accounts'.

No there isn't. There is absolutely NO evidence other than the Bible...and that is a self serving document that has been proven to be not much more than fable, fiction and fraud.

Irrelevant.

...but you have to prove a resurrection and you have no verifiable evidence that JtC ever existed let alone what happened to him or where he is now.

What...tree, clouds, fluffy kittens. Please supply your verifiable evidence for your 'creator'.
The Bible did not write itself. Nor is it one book. It is a number of different books written by a number of different people. Concerning the NT documents, they were written by apostles and by men closely associated with the apostles. That the apostles historically existed is attested to by the apostolic church fathers who were contemporaries of the apostles and in some cases personally knew them.

For instance, Polycarp (A.D 69-155) was ordained in the church of Smyrna by the apostle John, and Clement of Rome (? - c. A.D.100) was ordained in the church of Rome by the apostle Peter. These ordinations were recorded in church registers still in existence at the time that Tertullian (c. A.D. 150-225) wrote of this.
For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter. [ THE PRESCRIPTION AGAINST HERETICS. CHAP.XXXII]

Tertullian (Roberts-Donaldson)
Polycarp himself, writing to the Philippian church, refers to Paul and the rest of the apostles.
I exhort you all, therefore, to yield obedience to the word of righteousness, and to exercise all patience, such as ye have seen [set] before your eyes, not only in the case of the blessed Ignatius, and Zosimus, and Rufus, but also in others among yourselves, and in Paul himself, and the rest of the apostles. [This do] in the assurance that all these have not run in vain, but in faith and righteousness, and that they are [now] in their due place in the presence of the Lord, with whom also they suffered. For they loved not this present world, but Him who died for us, and for our sakes was raised again by God from the dead. [THE EPISTLE OF POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS, CHAPTER IX]

Polycarp to the Philippians (Roberts-Donaldson translation)

Clement of Rome, who, again, was a contemporary of the apostles stated in his letter to the Corinthians that the apostles, having received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of Jesus proclaimed their message.
The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done sol from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. [Letter of Clement to the Corinthians Chap. 42]

First Clement: Clement of Rome
The point of the above quotes is to show the historical reality of the apostles from the attestation of some of the apostolic church fathers.

And the apostles themselves testify to the existence of Jesus. Based on evidence such as the above, the historical existence of Jesus is not in doubt by the vast majority of historians and scholars. Quoting Bart Ehrman,
Despite this enormous range of opinion, there are several points on which virtually all scholars of antiquity agree. Jesus was a Jewish man, known to be a preacher and teacher, who was crucified (a Roman form of execution) in Jerusalem during the reign of the Roman emperor Tiberius, when Pontius Pilate was the governor of Judea. Even though this is the view of nearly every trained scholar on the planet, it is not the view of a group of writers who are usually labeled, and often label themselves, mythicists.

[Did Jesus Exist? Ehrman, p. 12]
While Ehrman, who describes himself as an agnostic with atheistic leanings, does not believe that Jesus was divine, he nevertheless defends the historical existence of Jesus.


Now as for the resurrection of Jesus, there is historical evidence which can be examined. And resurrection studies have been conducted by scholars for many years. Even skeptical scholars acknowledge that the apostles believed they saw the resurrected Jesus, and many naturalistic theories have been advanced by the skeptics in an effort to explain why the apostles believed they saw the risen Jesus. Commenting on this, Craig L. Blomberg writes,
''Today comparatively few scholars opt for the alternatives to belief in the resurrection that have been most commonly offered down through the ages, and that still surface more often in popular literature. These include the swoon theory, according to which Jesus did not quite die on the cross, but revived in the tomb, managed to escape, and appeared to his disciples before expiring shortly thereafter, the original counterclaim of the Jewish authorities that Jesus' disciples stole the body (Matt. 28:13); the notion that Jesus' followers went to the wrong tomb and thus found it empty; and the idea that all the witnesses of the resurrection experienced some kind of mass hallucination. Such 'explanations' require more faith for one to believe in them than does the supernatural explanation that Jesus did in fact rise bodily from the grave.''

[The Historical Reliability of the Gospels, Blomberg, pp. 136-37]

Now, it is one thing to believe something based on second hand information; that is, believing something that someone else has said. But it is another thing to believe something because you were an eyewitness to what you proclaim to be true. The apostles were eyewitnesses to what they believed was the risen Jesus. They were therefore proclaiming something they believed to be true based on their personal encounters with what they believed to be the resurrected Jesus. If the naturalistic theories can be ruled out, then that leaves the conclusion that the disciples believed they saw the risen Jesus because they actually did see Him; because Jesus actually did rise from the dead and appeared to them.

The disciples were willing to endure suffering for the rest of their lives for proclaiming the risen Jesus. And at least some of the disciples who had been eyewitness's were martyred for proclaiming the risen Jesus.

The resurrection of Jesus doesn't even depend on appeals to Biblical inerrancy or inspiration. The historical evidence for His resurrection can be examined and a conclusion drawn. Many skeptical scholars, who can't accept that Jesus was actually resurrected, nevertheless dismiss the naturalistic theories as inadequate to explain the experiences of the apostles.

Gary Habermas, (PhD., Michigan State) distinguished professor and chair of the department of philosophy and theology at liberty University in Lynchburg, Va, is a recognized authority on the resurrection of Jesus. Here is his website in which he presents articles regarding resurrection studies.

Dr. Gary R. Habermas - Online Resource for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ Articles

Dr. Gary R. Habermas - Online Resource for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ Homepage

Here is one of his lectures on the resurrection of Jesus.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay_Db4RwZ_M
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Old 04-11-2016, 05:21 PM
 
642 posts, read 185,167 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
When Peter (who walked with Jesus) confirms your words as gospel (as he did for Paul), then I'll trust you as being a prophet of God.

RESPONSE:


I'd like to see your reference for this assertion.
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Old 04-11-2016, 05:26 PM
 
8,695 posts, read 11,934,574 times
Reputation: 3138
The fact that Paul is mentioned by an ancient historian means literally nothing in regards to my question.

0 and counting
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Old 04-11-2016, 08:00 PM
Status: "Build the damn wall!" (set 20 days ago)
 
Location: Walt Disney World
15,245 posts, read 8,270,255 times
Reputation: 1548
Quote:
supply your verifiable evidence for your 'creator'.
Causation
No viable alternative to a creator
The Law of Teleology
Mankinds inate desire to discover their creator
The existence of good and evil
The vastness of the universe
Morality/purpose/meaning

Former atheist Lee Strobel, who arrived at this end result many years ago, has commented, “Essentially, I realized that to stay an atheist, I would have to believe that nothing produces everything; non-life produces life; randomness produces fine-tuning; chaos produces information; unconsciousness produces consciousness; and non-reason produces reason. Those leaps of faith were simply too big for me to take, especially in light of the affirmative case for God's existence”.
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Old 04-11-2016, 08:37 PM
 
8,695 posts, read 11,934,574 times
Reputation: 3138
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Causation
No viable alternative to a creator
The Law of Teleology
Mankinds inate desire to discover their creator
The existence of good and evil
The vastness of the universe
Morality/purpose/meaning

Former atheist Lee Strobel, who arrived at this end result many years ago, has commented, “Essentially, I realized that to stay an atheist, I would have to believe that nothing produces everything; non-life produces life; randomness produces fine-tuning; chaos produces information; unconsciousness produces consciousness; and non-reason produces reason. Those leaps of faith were simply too big for me to take, especially in light of the affirmative case for God's existence”.
This is off topic. Please don't post anything else on this thread. Thank you.
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Old 04-11-2016, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,310 posts, read 14,170,795 times
Reputation: 10134
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Your answer here is proof that you cannot answer Mystics question, and proof that you rely on others teaching you about the bible and God . It's sad really because there is something far greater within you and if you let go of idolising the bible, and listened to what God has planted in you, you would be able to explain your experience of the Holy Spirit. The spirit of love is Christ and by it we know that which is of God.
Like I said... I could explain it... I am sure I have done it along the line since 2009. It doesn't matter. I will let the Bible explain it. I try to do that, you don't accept that either.

So no worries on my end...
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