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Old 04-12-2016, 06:42 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,222 posts, read 14,105,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
My personal reasons are that I think that belief in ancient superstition has no place in our modern world. Religion and the religion of Christianity in particular has stunted the growth of mankind for 2,000 years and it's time it went.


...and I don't but this is a discussion forum; a place where people put forward ideas, thoughts and beliefs and 'discuss' them. It would be a pretty boring place if everyone just patted each other on the back and said ...yes, I agree with you.

So then, if you have verifiable evidence for your claims I'd love to see it.

If you choose to equate the life, death, and resurrection of Christ to a flat earth and whatever else you listed - then there's nothing really to discuss with me about this.
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Old 04-12-2016, 06:46 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,222 posts, read 14,105,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
They do not seem to want to address what the characteristics of the Spirit are because that would require that they then test the Spirit of the other things they believe against them. They avidly avoid acknowledging contradictions and inconsistencies in defense of retaining thier "precepts and doctrines of men." It is sad that Christ's message has been corrupted by this refusal to be guided by the Spirit to what God has "written in our hearts" in agape love. They prefer to be guided by "precepts and doctrines of men" derived in primitive ignorance from the words "written in ink."

If you are not afraid to address issues - then address the Scripture I brought forth.
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Old 04-12-2016, 06:46 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,870 posts, read 9,656,549 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
If you choose to equate the life, death, and resurrection of Christ to a flat earth and whatever else you listed - then there's nothing really to discuss with me about this.
Shall I take that as you conceding that you cannot refute my rebuttal to your post and further, have no verifiable evidence to support your 'Jesus' claims?
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Old 04-12-2016, 07:16 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,222 posts, read 14,105,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Shall I take that as you conceding that you cannot refute my rebuttal to your post and further, have no verifiable evidence to support your 'Jesus' claims?
It means that there is nothing else for me discuss.

Can I meet your demands? Probably not. Doesn't change anything for me. I am not conceding to anything except the fact that we will not have a fruitful discussion.

You need to feel as though you won a discussion - go for it... YAY you win... doesn't change anything about what the truth is. Enjoy the spoils of victory.
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Old 04-12-2016, 07:26 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,870 posts, read 9,656,549 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
... doesn't change anything about what the truth is.
That's right, It doesn't.

Quote:
Enjoy the spoils of victory.
Thanks!
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Old 04-12-2016, 07:50 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,551 posts, read 7,004,990 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
It's faith.

It's the witness of the Holy Spirit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
What is the genesis of this faith??? Who are you placing this faith in??? The Bible authors? What verses? Your religious leaders and theologians?? Why? They all are only men??
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
My post is clear.

CLUE: I only mentioned one Person in my post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Okay, we are on the same wavelength. Now, what are the characteristics of the Holy Spirit that enable you to recognize what is compatible with this Spirit and what is NOT?????


Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
I know we are not on the same frequency.

"Characteristics of the Holy Spirit"... if you have to ask, you don't have Him.

You can read John chapters 14-16 for what Jesus said about the Holy Spirit.
So please tell me how you can say, "No - it was not directly about the characteristics of the Holy Spirit.

I answered Mystic's initial question already. Jesus is clear about the role of the Holy Spirit... chapters 14-16 in John."

He did not ask about the ROLE, he asked about the characteristics, clearly and unequivocally and you continue to deflect, even (or especially) after some scripture that indicates those characteristics is pointed out to you. Why?

What do you see in those scriptures that you brought up about the role of the Spirit that bears in any way on the characteristics of the Spirit you wer asked about? Why do you want Mystic to depart from his question by addressing the ROLE rather than the characteristics of the Spirit?

If you are talking about the fact that the Holy Spirit is the foundation of faith, Mystic accepted your original assertion and asked you to clarify the characteristics by which you could be sure the Holy Spirit is the guide you are following. You duck and weave when confronted with this question. Why?
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Old 04-12-2016, 08:46 AM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,651,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post


The authors of the NT are unknown. Anonymous.
Some of the NT books are anonymous. As you can see, many of the NT letters identify the writers.

Quote:
In other words, they were believed to have existed by people who believed the Bible when it told them that they existed. Brilliant logic there old chap.
As I stated quite clearly, the existence of the apostles is attested to by the apostolic church fathers who lived at the same time as the apostles, and in some cases actually personally knew the apostles.
I made a point of quoting them.
Quote:
Yep. I have no problem whatsoever with the possibility of THAT 'Jesus' having possibly existed but THAT Jesus is irrelevant. It is the miracle-working, son of a god Jesus that I and historians have the problem with. Personally, as you are a believer of the 'divine' Jesus, I find it odd that you put forward and argument that goes against you.
It must first be established that Jesus existed historically before any arguments can be made that He is who he claimed to be. Establishing His existence historically does not go against me.

Quote:
Then I and no doubt the rest of the word would love to see it. Do you have it rather than just claiming that it exists?

I have no doubt that they believed it but that is no more evidence for a JtC than people who believe that the Earth is flat is evidence that it is flat.

...and so far, all your 'evidence' consists of is ...it's true because people believed that it happened'. That is no more evidence that it's true than belief in Bigfoot means that it's true. You need much more than that my friend.
As already explained, even skeptical scholars acknowledge that the disciples believed they saw the risen Jesus. And a number of naturalistic theories have been advanced over the years to explain why the disciples believed they saw the risen Jesus. But scholars, even many or most of the skeptical scholars rule out those naturalistic explanations as being plausible. That leaves the only remaining possibility - that Jesus really did rise from the dead and appeared to the disciples.


Quote:
Do you have any evidence, other than the Bible to show that your apostles existed? You see Gary, what you are basically doing here is using the Bible as evidence for the Bible.
Well...

1. You need to prove the existence of the apostles outside of the Bible.
2. You need to show that what they believed was actually true.

If you are going to claim that something is true simply because people believed it, then you are going to have to accept that every other claim made by the crackpots that walk amongst us is also true...simply on the grounds that they believe it.[/quote]
I already provided extra-biblical historical evidence for the existence of the apostles. For one thing, as I quoted Tertullian;
For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter. [ THE PRESCRIPTION AGAINST HERETICS. CHAP.XXXII][indent]

Are you claiming that the church records were falsified in order to deceive people not only of their own time, but us as well?


Quote:
So the Bible claims but as yet, you have not shown the Bible to be trustworthy and reliable. Nor have you shown any evidence for them being 'martyrs'. As far as you know (assuming they existed for the sake of the discussion) they may have been given no choice in the matter. Please show evidence extent of the Bible that they even existed.
I already provided evidence outside of the Bible that they existed. And that at least some of the apostles were martyred is also attested to outside of the Bible. But you can do your own research on that, although I am fairly certain that you won't.


Quote:
There is no verifiable evidence for your JtC much less his 'resurrection.'
Yes there is. First of all, the fact that Jesus existed historically, and that he was crucified during the reign of the Roman emperor Tiberius when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea is recognized by almost every scholar of antiquity as stated by Bart Ehrman. As for Jesus being resurrected, again the historical evidence consists of the fact that not only did the apostles believe they saw the risen Jesus, but so did Paul who was not a believer at the time the risen Jesus appeared to him. And since the naturalistic explanations for why they believed they saw the risen Jesus can be ruled out, that leaves the only other explanation which is that the risen Jesus really did appear to them.


Quote:
No it can't. It doesn't exist.
Yes the historical evidence for Jesus' resurrection can be examined because the historical evidence does exist and has been examined by scholars for many years. To simply deny that fact as you are doing is simply parading your ignorance of the subject

Quote:
Oh please stop this nonsense Gary! Habermas is a Christian apologist. It's his job to make the story believable.
And yet, even many skeptical scholars who have studied the resurrection have concluded that the naturalistic theories do not adequately explain why the disciples believe they saw the risen Jesus. But since those same skeptical scholars can't bring themselves to believe that Jesus was actually risen, they are left with a ???

Being a believer, as Habermas is, doesn't disqualify a person from being able to provide accurate historical information.


Okay, look. It's your choice whether you want to simply dismiss all of this because you simply don't want to believe it, or whether you will make an effort to objectively look at the historical evidence. I already provided a link to Habermas' website which contains articles pertaining to resurrection studies.

And I am going to leave it at that because I am quite willing to leave to their unbelief those skeptics of the dishonest variety who refuse to accept any amount of historical evidence, and even deny that there is any evidence though having been shown it.
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Old 04-12-2016, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,222 posts, read 14,105,516 times
Reputation: 10096
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post




So please tell me how you can say, "No - it was not directly about the characteristics of the Holy Spirit.



He did not ask about the ROLE, he asked about the characteristics, clearly and unequivocally and you continue to deflect, even (or especially) after some scripture that indicates those characteristics is pointed out to you. Why?

What do you see in those scriptures that you brought up about the role of the Spirit that bears in any way on the characteristics of the Spirit you wer asked about? Why do you want Mystic to depart from his question by addressing the ROLE rather than the characteristics of the Spirit?

If you are talking about the fact that the Holy Spirit is the foundation of faith, Mystic accepted your original assertion and asked you to clarify the characteristics by which you could be sure the Holy Spirit is the guide you are following. You duck and weave when confronted with this question. Why?

Here is the question.

Quote:
Okay, we are on the same wavelength. Now, what are the characteristics of the Holy Spirit that enable you to recognize what is compatible with this Spirit and what is NOT?????
See the underlined portion? That qualifier changes the tone of the question. I chose to answer the question using Jesus' plan and intent for the Holy Spirit. I don't need to clarify. Either one of you can read it and agree/disagree with what Jesus stated.

If you choose not to address what Jesus stated - that's fine... no worries from me.
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Old 04-12-2016, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,870 posts, read 9,656,549 times
Reputation: 2397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Some of the NT books are anonymous. As you can see, many of the NT letters identify the writers.
The Bible confirming the Bible.


Quote:
As I stated quite clearly, the existence of the apostles is attested to by the apostolic church fathers who lived at the same time as the apostles, and in some cases actually personally knew the apostles.
I made a point of quoting them.
They are believers backing up the stories of other Believers.

Quote:
It must first be established that Jesus existed historically before any arguments can be made that He is who he claimed to be. Establishing His existence historically does not go against me.
Yes it does because the Jesus that may have existed is not the Jesus you want to have existed. ..the Bible one. Claiming that historian have no problem with a historical Jesus does nothing to help you at all because they are not referring to Bible Jesus.

Quote:
As already explained, even skeptical scholars acknowledge that the disciples believed they saw the risen Jesus.
What they 'believed' is irrelevant, just like the beliefs of people that think the world is flat are irrelevant.

Quote:
And a number of naturalistic theories have been advanced over the years to explain why the disciples believed they saw the risen Jesus. But scholars, even many or most of the skeptical scholars rule out those naturalistic explanations as being plausible. That leaves the only remaining possibility - that Jesus really did rise from the dead and appeared to the disciples.
Nope. That's just wishful thinking on your part.

Quote:
I already provided extra-biblical historical evidence for the existence of the apostles. For one thing, as I quoted Tertullian;
For this is the manner in which the apostolic churches transmit their registers: as the church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter. [ THE PRESCRIPTION AGAINST HERETICS. CHAP.XXXII]
It's not extra Biblical because those people got their information FROM the Bible.

Quote:
Are you claiming that the church records were falsified in order to deceive people not only of their own time, but us as well?
Well it certainly wouldn't be the first time would it. Here are the words of one of your esteemed church fathers....

"That it will be necessary sometimes to use falsehood as a remedy for the benefit of those who require such a mode of treatment"
(Eusebius. The title for chapter 32 of the twelth book of Evangelical Preparation)


I have to go out now. I'll deal with the rest of your post later this evening.
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Old 04-12-2016, 09:57 AM
 
19,952 posts, read 12,976,072 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
The Bible confirming the Bible.
It's actually one book confirming the rest. You still haven't realized it's a collection of books, rather than 1 big one?
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