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Old 04-07-2016, 07:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV View Post
So many evangelical Christians use the above scripture to authenticate the New Testament. Not so. The NT had not been compiled at the time this scripture was penned. Indeed, very few people would have been in possession of Paul's letters, let alone the Gospel accounts. 2 Timothy 3:16 can only be referring to the OLD Testament or the Torah.
I can accept that.
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Old 04-07-2016, 08:17 PM
 
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2 Tim 3:16 couldn't have possibly been referring to the NT. Which at the time most of which had not been written, or may have just included Paul's own letters. And possibly other writings he didn't even know about that were floating around somewhere.
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Old 04-07-2016, 08:29 PM
Status: "Build the damn wall!" (set 6 days ago)
 
Location: The Haunted Mansion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
2 Tim 3:16 couldn't have possibly been referring to the NT. Which at the time most of which had not been written, or may have just included Paul's own letters. And possibly other writings he didn't even know about that were floating around somewhere.
Unless those words were inspired by God, and were not just Paul's opinion.
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Old 04-07-2016, 08:33 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Unless those words were inspired by God, and were not just Paul's opinion.
I seriously doubt it. No, I think that Christians in general are just not very critical thinking. So they come up with off the wall ideas like this in order to justify themselves. They are only lying to themselves.
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Old 04-07-2016, 08:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
Unless those words were inspired by God, and were not just Paul's opinion.
Acknowledging the validity of this rationale, why do you think God stopped inspiring us, jimmie??? Did we suddenly become unworthy of inspiration? Did we not need any further inspiration? What is the thinking here, jimmie?
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Old 04-07-2016, 08:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
How does a Bible believer do this?

How do you as a Bible believer determine that a particular verse was inspired by God?

How do you know which books were intended (by God) to be included in the Bible? How do you confirm that they were not altered from their original writing?

Dear Oz,
Start with the premise that Yeshua is the prophet Moses told his people to listen too. Yeshua referred to the OT as Scripture which could not be broken. The OT states that if anyone makes statements contrary to what is in the law and the testimonies, they have no light. (Is 8:20). That is to say, they are speaking from darkness. Yeshua also taught that the good seed, "the word of the kingdom" (Mt 13:19) would be mixed in the same field with the seed of the tares. The NT is filled with both the good seed, and the tare seed, which is comparable to leaven, which ruins the whole loaf. The actual Passover is approaching, and one is to make preparation for the feast of unleavened bread by taking out all the leaven from the household. Unless one takes out the leaven, their loaf will not be unleavened bread, and they will be as the blind leading the blind. One needs to take out the leaven, which is the hypocrisy of the Pharisee, or the pit may take them unaware.
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Old 04-07-2016, 10:02 PM
 
Location: minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomulusXXV View Post
So many evangelical Christians use the above scripture to authenticate the New Testament. Not so. The NT had not been compiled at the time this scripture was penned. Indeed, very few people would have been in possession of Paul's letters, let alone the Gospel accounts. 2 Timothy 3:16 can only be referring to the OLD Testament or the Torah.
I would assume the answer to that to be that it could be used to authenticate the entire bible since God is in charge of what would be included in the bible.


Of course it's circular Ozzy. It doesn't seem that way when you are a believer though.
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Old 04-07-2016, 10:13 PM
 
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Be born from above.

No one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born from above.
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Old 04-07-2016, 10:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
2 Tim 3:16 couldn't have possibly been referring to the NT. Which at the time most of which had not been written, or may have just included Paul's own letters. And possibly other writings he didn't even know about that were floating around somewhere.
Actually, Paul's letters were considered sacred writings - scripture, as the apostolic church father Polycarp states in his epistle to the Philippian church. Polycarp (c. A.D. 69 – 155) was a contemporary of the apostles and had been placed in the church of Smyrna by the apostle John.

Polycarp cites Ephesians 4:26 ''Be ye angry and sin not,'' and ''Let not the sun set on your wrath.''
THE EPISTLE OF POLYCARP

Polycarp 12:1
For I am persuaded that ye are well trained in the sacred writings,
and nothing is hidden from you. But to myself this is not granted.
Only, as it is said in these scriptures, Be ye angry and sin not,
and Let not the sun set on your wrath. Blessed is he that
remembereth this; and I trust that this is in you.[Bolding mine]

Polycarp to the Philippians (Lightfoot translation)
Ephesians 4:26 Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger,

And so, yes, the early church considered Paul's letters to be scripture.

F. F. Bruce (1910-1990), Rylands Professor of Biblical Criticism and Exegesis at the University of Manchester, England was of the opinion that the corpus Paulinum, or collection of Paul's writings was brought together at about the same time as the four Gospels were brought together which he says must have been soon after the Gospel According to John was written. Bruce also notes that 2 Peter 3:15-16 seems to testify to a collection of at least some Pauline epistles. [The New Testament Documents, Are They Reliable?, pp. 18,20]

Peter, or for the skeptics, the author of 2 Peter, also refers to Paul's letters as scripture in 2 Peter 3:16.

Also, since there are those who don't believe Ephesians to be an authentic letter of Paul's, while Polycarp doesn't mention Paul's name when citing Ephesians 4:26 in the Epistle of Polycarp 12:1, he does refer to Paul in 3:2 as ''the blessed and glorious Paul,'' and in 9:1 where he refers to ''Paul himself and the rest of the Apostles.'' The early church did consider all the letters attributed to Paul to have been authentic. But even if you don't agree that Paul wrote Ephesians, Polycarp nevertheless refers to Ephesians as sacred writings and scripture.

Last edited by Mike555; 04-07-2016 at 10:46 PM..
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:47 PM
 
8,544 posts, read 11,876,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8 View Post
I would assume the answer to that to be that it could be used to authenticate the entire bible since God is in charge of what would be included in the bible.


Of course it's circular Ozzy. It doesn't seem that way when you are a believer though.
In other words, in order to be a believer, one cannot have any critical thinking skills.
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