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Old 04-16-2016, 09:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
What do you think of fictional novels that are written the same way? For example, the novel Dracula was written in the form of letters from various people. Yet, no one today would thinks that the form of storytelling means that it was a historical account.

What makes the stories in the Bible any different from fictional stories?
The Gospel writers were not writing fiction and obviously expected to be understood as writing factual accounts. This is plain from the prologue of Luke's Gospel where he is writing to Theophillus in order to provide him with the exact truth regarding what he had already been taught.

The disciples who were eyewitnesses to Jesus were not willing to spend the rest of their lives suffering for, and in at least some cases, being martyred for, a fictional story. They suffered, and even died for what they knew to be true because they were eyewitnesses to Jesus' ministry, and to His resurrection.
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Old 04-16-2016, 09:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Gospel writers were not writing fiction and obviously expected to be understood as writing factual accounts. This is plain from the prologue of Luke's Gospel where he is writing to Theophillus in order to provide him with the exact truth regarding what he had already been taught.

The disciples who were eyewitnesses to Jesus were not willing to spend the rest of their lives suffering for, and in at least some cases, being martyred for, a fictional story. They suffered, and even died for what they knew to be true because they were eyewitnesses to Jesus' ministry, and to His resurrection.
But you haven't explained why you believe that. You have only stated what you believe.
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Old 04-16-2016, 09:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
But you haven't explained why you believe that. You have only stated what you believe.
Actually, I did explain why I believe it in post #30. The fact that Jesus rose from the dead, and for which there is historical evidence, can be examined.

I'm reasonably certain that you've seen my posts on other threads concerning the historical evidence for Jesus' resurrection.
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Old 04-16-2016, 09:51 AM
 
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I agree wholeheartedly. Fundamentalism in Christianity is a cancer whose malignancy repels people away from Christianity by the millions every single day. Christianity will not survive with fundamentalism and its bronze-Age notions of morality saddled around its neck like an albatross. The first thing Christian leaders should do is throw away the Old Testament. It has no place in a 21st century Bible. It is filled with horrific accounts of a Bronze-Age pagan war god named Yahweh committing genocide uselessly and fundamentalists have to defend these atrocities.


The second thing non-fundamentalist Christian leaders should do is completely revise the New Testament so that it is no longer full of glaring error and contradictions


194 Contradictions New Testament "194 Contradictions and Errors in the New Testament"


Once these two things are accomplished Christian leaders might be able to arrest the hemorrhage of Christians out of Christianity. Until that happens the hemorrhaging will continue until Christianity dies a death of a million cuts.
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Old 04-16-2016, 10:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No, my stance is not non-literal. Proper interpretation demands taking as literal that which a plain sense reading obviously is to be understood as literal, and taking as symbolic or allegorical those things which obviously are not to be understood as literal.

The fact that Jesus rose from the dead, and for which there is historical evidence which can be examined, is a part of the Gospel message as stated in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7. That passage is recognized by scholars as what is known as a pre-Pauline tradition which means that it didn't originate with Paul but was a creed or tradition which goes back to the beginning of the church.
1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered to you in the foremost what also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4] and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5] and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6] After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7] then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;
Excerpt:
''1 Corinthians 15:3-7 is widely recognized by New Testament scholars as a statement of belief (creed) that was systematized long before Paul quoted it. If so, it represents the earliest historical account of Jesus’ resurrection, and goes back to the eyewitnesses themselves. Gary Habermas comments on the very early date of this creed, which even skeptical scholars acknowledge.''

Read more: https://greatcloud.wordpress.com/201...d-of-1-cor-15/

I asked you how he did it.

as far as "eye witness". My aunt claims I do not have a big nose, just go ask me mum. She says it's a great looking nose. I say "ma, lets measure it and compare it to other noses."

she laughs and says ...
"don't be silly, I love your nose."
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Old 04-16-2016, 10:15 AM
 
8,613 posts, read 11,898,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Actually, I did explain why I believe it in post #30. The fact that Jesus rose from the dead, and for which there is historical evidence, can be examined.

I'm reasonably certain that you've seen my posts on other threads concerning the historical evidence for Jesus' resurrection.
You'll have to try to explain in your own words, because I haven't heard one word from you on why you believe. You have only stated what you believe.

For example, you believe a written statement is proof of the event, and that is all the evidence you require. Fine. But why do you believe the written statement?
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Old 04-16-2016, 11:05 AM
 
20,306 posts, read 15,665,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
You'll have to try to explain in your own words, because I haven't heard one word from you on why you believe. You have only stated what you believe.

For example, you believe a written statement is proof of the event, and that is all the evidence you require. Fine. But why do you believe the written statement?
Are you unable to understand what I said? I said there is historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus which can be, and has been examined by scholars and historians. I believe because there is historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus. I consider the evidence to be valid. I'm not going to go into all the evidence because the following videos go into much more detail than it would be reasonable to post. Futhermore, I'm not inclined to take the time to go into great detail when I'm reasonably certain it will simply be dismissed anyway. If you want to examine the evidence for yourself, then listen to the following videos. If not, it's your loss.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ErnJF_nwBk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0iDNLxmWVM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdIM8QoD8UE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWbShiINl4s



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHofTmolbi0
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Old 04-16-2016, 11:09 AM
 
20,306 posts, read 15,665,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
I asked you how he did it.

as far as "eye witness". My aunt claims I do not have a big nose, just go ask me mum. She says it's a great looking nose. I say "ma, lets measure it and compare it to other noses."

she laughs and says ...
"don't be silly, I love your nose."
Jesus was raised by the power of God. That is HOW He was raised.

And you have no valid reason for rejecting the eyewitness testimony of the disciples.
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Old 04-16-2016, 11:50 AM
Status: "Even better than okay" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
51,363 posts, read 50,609,566 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
I tend to agree. Liberal Christianity has little or no value beyond creating a community. It's most important function, in my view, is to oppose (and inoculate people against) fundamentalist Christianity.
I realize you're an atheist, Freak80, but why do you think that (the first sentence?) To those of us who are labeled "Liberal Christians", it's far more than that. It's the freedom to seek a deeper knowledge of God and to keep asking questions. Again, I realize that's just silly to someone like you who doesn't believe in a deity, but my point is that the community happens because of that common interest of theology. I studied far more and learned more in an open-minded, questioning church than I did in the church where I grew up in which every question could be answered by a pat Bible verse, hoping you would just shut up.
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Old 04-16-2016, 12:07 PM
 
10,521 posts, read 4,149,112 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Jesus was raised by the power of God. That is HOW He was raised.

And you have no valid reason for rejecting the eyewitness testimony of the disciples.
ok, so you don't know how. Your logic starts at "I don't know". Thats not good start.

No valid reason? what is your valid reason in believing in magic or dude died, woke up, and flew away?
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