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Old 04-17-2016, 04:45 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Even if we assume that he was resurrected, how would we even know what he claimed to be, or what he said?
If the disciples were truthful concerning Jesus being resurrected, then they can be trusted to have truthfully recorded what Jesus said and did. As I pointed out earlier, the author of the Gospel of John is said by whoever wrote John 21:24 (which was written by someone other than the author of the rest of that Gospel account) to have been a witness to what he wrote. In other words, the author of the Gospel of John was with Jesus during His ministry.

Jesus claimed to be God, as well as the Son of God. He claimed to be the way, the truth, and the life. He claimed to be the only way to the Father.

As for making assumptions, you should examine the available historical evidence before coming to any conclusions.
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Old 04-17-2016, 04:58 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The circumstances in which the disciples were eyewitnesses to the risen Jesus did not lend themselves to unreliable perceptions of events.

Eyewitness reports tend to be unreliable when;

1.) Events happen very quickly as in a car crash which occurs within the space of a few seconds.

2.) When a person goes out looking for something he wants and hopes to find. For example, a person hoping to find Bigfoot may convince himself that he saw him in some wooded area. Or someone hoping to find a ghost in a haunted house may similarly conclude that he has seen a ghost.

3.) In a stressful situation such as a bank robbery when the assailment has a gun.


None of those circumstances or conditions were involved in the disciples sightings of the risen Jesus.

1.) The resurrection sightings of Jesus took place over a forty day period in which Jesus appeared on a number of occasions. Furthermore, Jesus ate with the disciples and had conversations with them.

2.) The disciples were not expecting Jesus to be resurrected even though Jesus had told them that He must be killed and then rise again. The disciples simply did not understand as is shown in Mark 9:31-32; Luke 9:44-45; Luke 18:31-34; Luke 24:10-11. Jewish belief (the Sadducees did not believe in a resurrection) was that everyone would be resurrected at the end of the age. No one thought of anyone being resurrected before that time.

3.) The conditions under which the disciples saw the risen Jesus were not those of a sudden, stressful event such as a crime occurring. Again, there were multiple appearances over a period of forty days in which Jesus talked, and ate with the disciples.

The eyewitness accounts of the disciples are therefore trustworthy.


As for the supernatural, that simply refers to that which above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena. God is not natural. He is not a part of nature. God created all that is natural and He therefore is not natural. God did not create Himself.

The resurrection of Jesus was an historical event which happened and cannot be repeated as if it were some scientific experiment. No historical event can be repeated. Once an historical event has happened, it's done and over with, and what remains are the reports of those who witnessed the event, and depending on the event, archaeological evidence. Archaeological evidence cannot be expected for the resurrection of Jesus. What remains are the eyewitness reports of those who believe they saw the risen Jesus. And over the years, a number of naturalistic theories have been advanced to explain why the disciples believed they saw the risen Jesus. But none of those naturalistic theories can adequately explain why the disciples believed they saw the risen Jesus. The only thing which can explain why they believed they saw the risen Jesus is because He actually did appear to them after having risen.

But since you won't bother to watch any of the videos that I provided, or do any research on the subject,- here you go - Dr. Gary R. Habermas - Online Resource for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, you aren't qualified to offer any kind of an informed opinion on the matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
no need for me to watch. I know what I do not know. sorry.

God is not "not nature", that's impossible. And I think you fit 2 out of three in your list. They wanted it to be true and it most certainly was a stressful situation.
I specified what I meant by a 'stressful situation.' Again, the disciples were not expecting to see Jesus risen. They neither understood what Jesus said concerning the fact that He must be killed and then rise again, nor did they expect Him to be resurrected since Jewish believe did not include anyone being resurrected before the end of the age.

The fact that you keep saying that there is no need for you to watch . . . and by extension, no need to research, demonstrates your lack of desire to know if Jesus was actually resurrected or not. And perhaps you are afraid to look at the evidence. Some people simply don't want it to be true. As I told you already, it doesn't make any difference to me whether you look at the evidence or not. I have simply given you access to the evidence.

And how small minded to think that there can be nothing beyond the natural.
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Old 04-17-2016, 05:00 PM
 
9,247 posts, read 12,138,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
If the disciples were truthful concerning Jesus being resurrected, then they can be trusted to have truthfully recorded what Jesus said and did. As I pointed out earlier, the author of the Gospel of John is said by whoever wrote John 21:24 (which was written by someone other than the author of the rest of that Gospel account) to have been a witness to what he wrote. In other words, the author of the Gospel of John was with Jesus during His ministry.

Jesus claimed to be God, as well as the Son of God. He claimed to be the way, the truth, and the life. He claimed to be the only way to the Father.

As for making assumptions, you should examine the available historical evidence before coming to any conclusions.
Why do you keep bringing the Bible back in? Please set the Bible aside.

Name one evidence outside of the Bible.
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Old 04-17-2016, 05:53 PM
 
11,195 posts, read 4,350,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I specified what I meant by a 'stressful situation.' Again, the disciples were not expecting to see Jesus risen. They neither understood what Jesus said concerning the fact that He must be killed and then rise again, nor did they expect Him to be resurrected since Jewish believe did not include anyone being resurrected before the end of the age.

The fact that you keep saying that there is no need for you to watch . . . and by extension, no need to research, demonstrates your lack of desire to know if Jesus was actually resurrected or not. And perhaps you are afraid to look at the evidence. Some people simply don't want it to be true. As I told you already, it doesn't make any difference to me whether you look at the evidence or not. I have simply given you access to the evidence.

And how small minded to think that there can be nothing beyond the natural.
not small. if a person told you that somebody rose from the dead I would expect you to question it. I tell everybody to question it. I may have a small mind, but I have a strong one too. "jesus" is verb-ing, he is not a thing. its just the way it is.
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Old 04-17-2016, 06:05 PM
 
20,671 posts, read 15,931,394 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules View Post
Why do you keep bringing the Bible back in? Please set the Bible aside.

Name one evidence outside of the Bible.
Why do I keep bringing the Bible back in? Because from the standpoint of an historical document, it deserves the same respect as any other ancient document, and is to be taken seriously.

The New Testament documents were written by real historical people who witnessed, or interviewed witnesses to the life and resurrection of Jesus. Paul, John, James the brother of Jesus are all independent witnesses to the resurrection of Jesus. And Paul was a hostile witness who had at a later time saw the resurrected Jesus after His ascension. And so, no, I will not set the Bible aside.

As I said, the apostles were historical people. They existed.The apostolic church father Polycarp (A.D.69- 155) had been a student of the apostle John. That fact was recorded by Irenaeus who had himself been a student of Polycarp. In his letter to Florinus, the fragment of that letter having been preserved by Eusebius in his Ecclesiastical History, he writes;
Church History (Book V), chap. XX (chapter 20).

5. For when I was a boy, I saw you in lower Asia with Polycarp, moving in splendor in the royal court, and endeavoring to gain his approbation.

6. I remember the events of that time more clearly than those of recent years. For what boys learn, growing with their mind, becomes joined with it; so that I am able to describe the very place in which the blessed Polycarp sat as he discoursed, and his goings out and his comings in, and the manner of his life, and his physical appearance, and his discourses to the people, and the accounts which he gave of his intercourse with John and with the others who had seen the Lord. And as he remembered their words, and what he heard from them concerning the Lord, and concerning his miracles and his teaching, having received them from eyewitnesses of the 'Word of life,' 1 John 1:1 Polycarp related all things in harmony with the Scriptures. [Bolding mine]
CHURCH FATHERS: Church History, Book V (Eusebius)
So there is extra-Biblical attestation for the existence of the apostles. Therefore, what the apostles wrote deserves to be taken seriously. But you might say, ''But they were believers. Show me someone who was not a believer who testifies of Jesus.'' In the first place, so what? So what if they were believers? Since when does being favorably disposed toward something make it impossible to provide objective, factual information. In the second place, Paul was not a believer when he saw the resurrected Jesus who appeared to him on the Damascus Road. And neither was Jesus' brother James who had not believed that Jesus who was who he claimed to be during His ministry, but who later came to believe that Jesus was who He claimed to be, and went to his martyrdom for his faith in Jesus. Josephus records the martyrdom of James (Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1) And scholars, or at least, the majority of scholars, do not doubt the authenticity of that report.

That Peter and Paul were also martyred is also recorded in church records. They went to their deaths for their faith. For something they knew to be true because they had been eyewitnesses of Jesus' resurrection.
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Old 04-17-2016, 06:18 PM
 
20,671 posts, read 15,931,394 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
not small. if a person told you that somebody rose from the dead I would expect you to question it. I tell everybody to question it. I may have a small mind, but I have a strong one too. "jesus" is verb-ing, he is not a thing. its just the way it is.
You, and those like you complain, show me the evidence that God exists. Or, show me the evidence that Jesus was raised from the dead. But then when given the opportunity to examine the historical evidence for Jesus' resurrection, which in itself, if true, is evidence for the existence of God, you won't even make the effort to look at the evidence.

You question the resurrection of Jesus but won't even bother to examine the available historical evidence which provides the opportunity to answer the question.

Hypocrites.

I've spent enough time on this thread with you people. You've been given the opportunity to examine the historical evidence for Jesus' resurrection. Since you refuse to do so, I'm just wasting my time on you.
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Old 04-17-2016, 06:29 PM
 
9,247 posts, read 12,138,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
and the accounts which he gave of his intercourse with John and with the others who had seen the Lord.
That is your proof? You have got to be kidding me. You would be laughed out of court by that.

AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!! (Yes, I feel like Charlie Brown who keeps expecting more from Lucy, but she pulls the ball out of the way every time.)

You would be laughed out of court if you claimed to have evidence, but all you had was a supposed written quote from another religious believer like yourself. And the quote itself has absolutely ZERO to do with the Bible or even the Christianity you are claiming.

0.
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Old 04-17-2016, 06:48 PM
 
11,195 posts, read 4,350,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You, and those like you complain, show me the evidence that God exists. Or, show me the evidence that Jesus was raised from the dead. But then when given the opportunity to examine the historical evidence for Jesus' resurrection, which in itself, if true, is evidence for the existence of God, you won't even make the effort to look at the evidence.

You question the resurrection of Jesus but won't even bother to examine the available historical evidence which provides the opportunity to answer the question.

Hypocrites.

I've spent enough time on this thread with you people. You've been given the opportunity to examine the historical evidence for Jesus' resurrection. Since you refuse to do so, I'm just wasting my time on you.

na, remember its not for you. Its for others that read it and can feel confident to question a claim "he rose from the dead."

We teach them that it is ok to question that event and conclude it is not real and still believe in something.
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Old 04-17-2016, 07:07 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
52,562 posts, read 51,699,059 times
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I wonder why Polycarp has never made a modern 100 most popular baby names list.
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Old 04-17-2016, 07:28 PM
 
9,247 posts, read 12,138,702 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
I wonder why Polycarp has never made a modern 100 most popular baby names list.
Excellent point.
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