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Old 04-17-2016, 11:49 AM
 
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Mainstream Christianity believes Jesus spoke personally about being the Son of God but the so called OT and even Jesus himself said otherwise. He claimed that He had brothers and sisters and that His followers were one as He is One with the Father.

What He was saying is that the son of man and servant of God is God's son and the only way to the kingdom of heaven. In the same way God said through the prophets that Israel is His son Jesus was speaking of the son of man. Not Himself but the servant of God whom God said is Israel.

Anyone agree, disagree?

"Israel is my son my firstborn, let my son go so he can serve me." says the Lord

"My brother's mother and sisters do the will of my heavenly Father." (Jesus)
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Old 04-17-2016, 12:35 PM
 
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Here's the problem we have with Jesus as the son of God: in Mark the earliest gospel produced by early Christian leaders they never pictured Jesus as God or as the son of God or as divine or as anything other than a human man sent by God to teach the truth of God to his Jewish people. That's all we have.


Then in the next two synoptics the leaders tried to puff up the story by making Jesus a pseudo-god but still not existent from eternity. That still didn't work because there was just too much competition from other peer dying/rising gods competing with Jesus whose followers demanded that if they were going to accept Jesus as their savior he had to be a deity.


Thus John's gospel comes into being and in this last gospel the church leaders roll out a full-fledged divine jesus who is a dying/rising god exactly like the competing dying/rising gods of the time: Attis, Mithra, Horus, Dionysius, Bacchus, Romulus, Hercules and a bunch others that Christian leaders could tell the pagans: "Look! We have a god as good as the ones you worship except this god died just a few decades ago so he's the last and the best god to worship. He was born of a virgin, he changed water into wine like Dionysius, he was crucified, he died and then rose like Bacchus, he ascended to God in heaven like Hercules. He's exactly like your own gods but he's the true god.


And it worked. Pagans flocked to this new god who was born of a virgin like Horus, you get washed in the blood of the Lamb just like Mithraists get washed in the blood of a bull for the forgiveness of their sins and attain eternal life. Jesus as evolving from a man into a god over the course of 50 years was the best move the Christians ever made for spreading this new faith.

Last edited by thrillobyte; 04-17-2016 at 01:19 PM..
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Old 04-17-2016, 12:58 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,059 posts, read 26,267,471 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacegiver View Post
Mainstream Christianity believes Jesus spoke personally about being the Son of God but the so called OT and even Jesus himself said otherwise.
When Jesus was stated to be the Son of God by Peter, and when He was asked by the high priest at His trial if He was the Son of God, Jesus affirmed that He was.

Matthew 16:15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16] Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17] And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God." 64] Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

And in the parallel passage;

Mark 14:61 But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62] And Jesus said, “I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

''The Blessed One'' refers to God. And so 'the Son of God.'

And so, Jesus did not deny being the Son of God. He affirmed that He was.


Additionally in Romans 8:3, written c. A.D 57, Paul refers to Jesus as God's Son.

Romans 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

Therefore, thrillobyte's comments in post #2 can be dismissed as well.

Last edited by Michael Way; 04-17-2016 at 01:14 PM..
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Old 04-17-2016, 01:10 PM
 
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In Mark Jesus said: "Why do you call me good? There is none good but one--that is God in heaven." Jesus could not have been more clear in attempting to divorce himself from any idea he was divine like God. He didn't call himself good; he recognized that only God is good, therefore he felt he was not up to the standard of "good" that he gave to God. It is clear he did believe he was chosen by God to be His representative on earth and that God would given him the right to judge the righteous and unrighteous, but again Jesus never claimed to have existed from eternity as he did in John. The Jesus of Mark is different from the Jesus of John and that is why Bible scholars recognize that the four gospels underwent a gradual refining as the church leaders who wrote them shaped their interpretations of who Jesus was as time passed and experiences with the pagans they were trying to convert changed over the decades.
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Old 04-17-2016, 01:15 PM
 
4,217 posts, read 2,775,881 times
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Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
When Jesus was stated to be the Son of God by Peter, and when He was asked by the high priest at His trial if He was the Son of God, Jesus affirmed that He was.

Matthew 16:15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16] Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17] And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 26:63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God." 64] Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.â€

And in the parallel passage;

Mark 14:61 But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62] And Jesus said, “I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.â€

''The Blessed One'' refers to God. And so 'the Son of God.'

And so, Jesus did not deny being the Son of God. He affirmed that He was.

Additionally in Romans 8:3, written c. A.D 57, Paul refers to Jesus as God's Son.

Romans 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
Was Jesus speaking of Himself personally or of the servant of God? Mainstream Christianity believes personally.

But what if He was speaking of the son of God whom God says is Israel the servant of God? After all He did speak in the third person of the son of man which indicates another.
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Old 04-17-2016, 01:16 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,059 posts, read 26,267,471 times
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Originally Posted by Peacegiver View Post
Was Jesus speaking of Himself personally or of the servant of God? Mainstream Christianity believes personally.

But what if He was speaking of the son of God whom God says is Israel the servant of God? After all He did speak in the third person of the son of man which indicates another.
You can read can't you? You can comprehend can't you. Jesus acknowledged that He personally was the Son of God.

Last edited by Michael Way; 04-17-2016 at 01:43 PM..
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Old 04-17-2016, 01:18 PM
 
4,217 posts, read 2,775,881 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
In Mark Jesus said: "Why do you call me good? There is none good but one--that is God in heaven." Jesus could not have been more clear in attempting to divorce himself from any idea he was divine like God. He didn't call himself good; he recognized that only God is good, therefore he felt he was not up to the standard of "good" that he gave to God. It is clear he did believe he was chosen by God to be His representative on earth and that God would given him the right to judge the righteous and unrighteous, but again Jesus never claimed to have existed from eternity as he did in John. The Jesus of Mark is different from the Jesus of John and that is why Bible scholars recognize that the four gospels underwent a gradual refining as the church leaders who wrote them shaped their interpretations of who Jesus was as time passed and experiences with the pagans they were trying to convert changed over the decades.
Just because it was written at a later time does not mean their belief changed after all in those days things were exchanged by word of mouth.
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Old 04-17-2016, 01:28 PM
 
18,227 posts, read 16,841,591 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peacegiver View Post
Just because it was written at a later time does not mean their belief changed after all in those days things were exchanged by word of mouth.

The idea that all these things were exchanged by word of mouth has nothing to do with what's in the gospels themselves. The gospels speak for themselves in what they purport to claim what Jesus said. The Jesus talking in John is vastly different from the Jesus of Mark. In John, gone is the bumbling Jesus who could not perform miracles on occasion and who was considered a lunatic by his family members that we find in Mark, the first gospel. The Jesus of John is divine and totally perfect in all he says and does. It obvious the portrait of Jesus in John is greatly superior to the inferior portrait of Jesus in Mark.
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Old 04-17-2016, 01:50 PM
 
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Jesus has always been in existence......."I am that I am".......He was the Creator that stood in the void and spoke the earth and heavens into existence.....He molded Adam from the ground....He has appeared throughout history just not normally in a full physical body like ours. When He did come physically He was always surrounded by hostile witnesses and historians who felt threatened by His power. If He were a fraud every person in the Mideast would have rose up against Him. The priests who should have known exactly who He was through all the prophecies, were always claiming He did things through the power of satan which is ridiculous. The empty tomb and resurrection is all the proof we need, as well as many saints who had passed away suddenly walking the streets of Jerusalem certainly causing incredible consternation among the town folk.........Matt 27. All who doubt should listen to that Roman soldier who was AT the cross, and said
"truly this is the Son of God".............

Jesus is God and has always been deity, always will be deity, and will be judging everyone on this board as well as the rest of humanity. If you can't see that then satan has clearly blinded you to the truth.............pray for the veil to be lifted
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Old 04-17-2016, 01:50 PM
 
4,217 posts, read 2,775,881 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You can read can't you? You can comprehend can't you. Jesus acknowledged that He personally was the Son of God.
Yes I can and Jesus was speaking of the servant of God.
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