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One thing that is quite clear is that a perfect world would be pretty boring. Think about it. In order to create a perfect world, we would all have to be identical automaton robots with no individuality at all. We'd have to live in our own individual indestructible bubbles at all times lest we stub our pinky toe. Any human interaction would have to be stopped completely, lest something tarnish perfection by accident. Nobody would get sick, or injured or die, all of which we'd fail to appreciate since sickness and injury and death wouldn't exist.
It strikes me that religious people always seem to say this...yet heaven, where nobody gets sick, injured or dies, where people are in their own individual indestructible bubbles, where perfection can not be tarnished, where no pinky toe is ever stubbed...is described as transcendental bliss.
It can be done in heaven without people being "identical automaton robots with no individuality at all" or without "human interaction (being) stopped completely" but it can't be done on earth? By the same God, mind you.
More hmmmmmmmm.
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They chose knowledge/experience over an eternally easy existence.
This I can fully get behind but still do not see the need for the degree of absolute, utter, jaw-dropping, makes-you-burst-into-tears-just-hearing-about-it "lessons" that exist every day, in some corner of the globe. It makes NO sense that God could not have found a way to produce lessons and experiences without the degree of pain and horror some people, actually many people, experience. I mean for instance, I might make my child uncomfortable and unhappy by chiding him for trying to cross the street alone. He's unhappy, he's sad, that's a lesson. The lesson I WOULDN'T give is, "Okay, go run into the street, once you get hit by a car and paralyzed, you'll have learned our own lesson and meanwhile, I didn't impinge upon your free will." See the difference? I'm sure you do. And obviously, I do. But God, the MOST powerful and knowledgeable being, can't?
It simply doesn't add up.
Now as far as the A&E story...they "chose" knowledge/experience etc...No, they didn't. If the story is to be believed, they had NO knowledge of what a "not easy existence" would even feel like...and further, they had no reason at all to expect a not-easy existence for eating the fruit; God simply told them they would die, not that they'd live and suffer until they died. And how the hell would they even know what death was? They'd never seen it. Did God describe it? It doesn't say so in the Bible. Maybe these innocent child-like people thought "death" would mean flying around with the angels and being able to see God all the time, who knows. Meanwhile, another god, from their perspective - something smarter than they - said, "No, God was just kidding, instead of dying, you'll be just like him!" and of course they wanted to be just like God - they loved him. So they ate.
NONE of that adds up to: A&E chose a life of suffering. In any way.
Since god is presumably omnipotent and omnipresent why does he/she/it need the praise of mere mortals? Isn't it a bit condescending ... who are we to give praise to something so god-ish? And since god is so omnipotent and great, presumably it couldn't have really been any other way - so why praise an unavoidable given? Now, of course, if it were a tyrannical and egotistical human being it would all be very different.
You're correct, in that he is omnipotent, omnipresent, and he's also "self-sufficient". That means he needs NOTHING--certainly not from his creation. He doesn't need us to praise him. But he does desire it.
Why would we NOT react by worshiping the all-powerful? That should be the natural reaction of a created being when confronted by their sovereign Creator.
Why would we NOT react by worshiping the all-powerful? That should be the natural reaction of a created being when confronted by their sovereign Creator.
For the same reason we wouldn't praise a person born beautiful for being beautiful. The person simply stepped in it. God presumably was always all-powerful and never had a single thing step in his way unless he wanted it to...indeed, designed it to. What the heck is praise-worthy about that? He didn't do a single thing to "earn" all these superpowers. He just cosmically stepped init. What about that is deserving of praise?
Terror, maybe. And indeed, that worked for centuries. It doesn't now, so much. But praise?
I have green eyes. Praise me for it. They're not brown like a gigantic portion of the globe. They are unique. And you don't have them...and you can't have them! Give me praise...I deserve it for having been born this way.
For the same reason we wouldn't praise a person born beautiful for being beautiful. The person simply stepped in it. God presumably was always all-powerful and never had a single thing step in his way unless he wanted it to...indeed, designed it to. What the heck is praise-worthy about that? He didn't do a single thing to "earn" all these superpowers. He just cosmically stepped init. What about that is deserving of praise?
Terror, maybe. And indeed, that worked for centuries. It doesn't now, so much. But praise?
I have green eyes. Praise me for it. They're not brown like a gigantic portion of the globe. They are unique. And you don't have them...and you can't have them! Give me praise...I deserve it for having been born this way.
You've never told someone they're beautiful? I have. I told my wife that at lunch today.
But no--beauty is not a reason to praise her and declare her greatness. Sovereignty would be, but not beauty.
You've never told someone they're beautiful? I have. I told my wife that at lunch today.
But no--beauty is not a reason to praise her and declare her greatness. Sovereignty would be, but not beauty.
Told someone they're beautiful? Yes. Fallen to my knees to worship the person, assuring that person that she is far beyond me and I am small in comparison and grateful to her for standing there being beautiful? Actually, no.
Sovereignty is worthy of praise. So, all rulers? Throughout history? They were all to be praised? All to be followed? Never to be questioned, much less corrected? Never wrong?
Told someone they're beautiful? Yes. Fallen to my knees to worship the person, assuring that person that she is far beyond me and I am small in comparison and grateful to her for standing there being beautiful? Actually, no.
I never suggested that supermodels are worthy of worship simply because they're beautiful.
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Sovereignty is worthy of praise. So, all rulers? Throughout history? They were all to be praised? All to be followed? Never to be questioned, much less corrected? Never wrong?
God is not simply some ruler or king. He is sovereign not just over one nation, or one town, but is sovereign over all Creation. If you were a subject of King Henry VIII you'd be expected to kneel before him, and show him respect if you came into his presence. But he was only the King of England. God is the Creator of the universe and is worthy of praise from all Creation.
I never suggested that supermodels are worthy of worship simply because they're beautiful.
You answered my saying God isn't worthy of praise for having his powers without having earned them and you answered by asking whether I've never called anyone beautiful. Are you saying here that your question was unrelated, although you quoted my post to make this comment?
God is not simply some ruler or king. He is sovereign not just over one nation, or one town, but is sovereign over all Creation. If you were a subject of King Henry VIII you'd be expected to kneel before him, and show him respect if you came into his presence. But he was only the King of England. God is the Creator of the universe and is worthy of praise from all Creation.
Actually, that is based on what you said, Viz.
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But no--beauty is not a reason to praise her and declare her greatness. Sovereignty would be, but not beauty.
Sovereignty would be a reason to praise and declare greatness, according to you. So I brought up the subject of other sovereigns. You didn't say just God's sovereignty specifically. You said, "sovereignty would be (a reason to praise and declare greatness)."
Your arguments are a little odd, Viz...they don't really keep up with what's being said...they don't even keep up with what you yourself are saying. So I'm not sure I understand, but above are my answers.
Now you're saying the reason God is worthy of praise for his greatness is because of the total amount of land that he rules?
Again, he "rules" it (well, according to you) based on nothing that he did, at all, to earn that might. Nothing, zip, just literally "born this way," and might makes right. No, that is not deserving of praise, IMO...no matter how large a land mass or rock one owns.
Now...if he'd had to overcome adversity, just like we do every single day of our lives, then I might feel like doing a little praising. Because then...he'd deserve the praise. He'd have actually worked for something. He'd have overcome. He'd have suffered, struggled and come through on the other side.
But just "he cosmically stepped in it, now he gets to own a big rock?" LOL, no, not praiseworthy, again IMO.
God wants you to love your neighbour as yourself on a basic level.
When you know him and worship him, he delights in your praise worship. Not flattery, because he is able to read you like a book.
Some worhip power, some find worship to be not FOR God, but for ourselves because it is an expression of the love we return to God.
I see people arguing about whether it is proper to worship Jesus, and I think they have lost all contact with the idea that praise is an expression of love.
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