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Old 05-23-2016, 05:37 PM
 
889 posts, read 825,027 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Correction--SOME ECF's did. Not all of them.

But the OP is asking some good questions. If eating his flesh gives eternal life, why must you do it at every Mass?
Some protestants claim that St. Augustine and Tertullian did not. Here's an article refuting that claim:

http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-sta...-real-presence.

or

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestio...iation-is-this

Last edited by GoodToBeHome; 05-23-2016 at 05:48 PM..
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Old 05-24-2016, 07:13 PM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 276,204 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
If eating his flesh gives eternal life, why must you do it at every Mass?
John 6:53 . . Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

Rome's understanding of the life referred to in Christ's statement is a bit proprietary.

"It is quite in keeping with the excellence of the heavenly Father that He should supply for His children during the pilgrimage a fitting sustenance which will sustain the dignity of their position, and be to them a pledge of resurrection and eternal life; and this is the Bread of the Holy Eucharist." (Catholic Encyclopedia)

Seeing as how the life obtained from the Eucharist has to be replenished from time to time in order to "sustain the dignity of their position, and be to them a pledge of resurrection and eternal life" then it's in the same category as manna, which was also a temporary sustenance. But Jesus said that the power of his "bread" isn't temporary; rather, it's perpetual.

John 6:49-51 . . Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever;

Something else: I suspect Rome is under the illusion that John 6:48-58 and 1Cor 11:23-25 are teaching the same thing; but there is a world of difference between the two teachings.

As an illustration: The Viet Nam War Memorial in Washington DC isn't set up as a food court where visitors come and dine upon the bodies and blood of the servicemen and women whose names are on the wall. No, the memorial is set up for remembering the people whose names are on the wall; lest we forget.

1Cor 11:23-25 . . For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, "This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."

Note that, unlike John 6:48-58, the above passage doesn't say "do this in order to obtain eternal life". Not even! No, it's a memorial service; and the intent is to prevent Christ's crucifixion from becoming marginalized; and thus out of mind.

1Cor 11:26 . . For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes.

Q: But what about 1Cor 11:29? Doesn't that teach real presence?

A: No; it teaches that when people regard the Lord's supper as merely food on the table; they devalue the importance of his death; which is a pretty serious sin.

1Cor 11:30 . . That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

Apparently the Corinthian Christians set the Lord's supper up as sort of a potluck and/or an all you can eat buffet where people helped themselves instead of being served by priests and altar boys. Well; that would have been okay except that it led to excess and poor manners.

1Cor 11:20-23 . .When you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper, for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God, and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.

1Cor 11:33-34 . . So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for each other. If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment.

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Last edited by NyawehNyoh; 05-24-2016 at 07:21 PM..
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Old 05-24-2016, 11:36 PM
 
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don't know what's especially "proprietary" about the statements---think the "dignity" refers to that of EVERY Christian believer redeemed by Christ into a new life (i.e. "born again") through faith and baptism. Catholics believe that communion with and consumption of the "living bread" of Christ is a vital and necessary way of nourishing and strengthening the believer in that new life and dignity.


certainly the Catholic Church accepts the validity and efficacy of communion/Eucharist of the various Orthodox churches who have basically the same beliefs so it would seem that the Church does not somehow think it can (or should) limit access to the benefits of the sacrament to only those strictly within it's own house. OTOH, those who have a different concept of just what the Eucharist is and what benefits may come from it and thus reject the Catholic (and Orthodox) views are probably often not that concerned about what the Catholics (or Orthodox) believe or practice since it theologically and practically has no effect on them---different strokes for different folks so to speak.


that said, the Catholic Church also believes that by God's grace and mercy opportunities for sanctification, edification, and "nourishment" can be had in and with the practices and beliefs of other Christians but perhaps not always in the same ways that Catholics believe work in theirs. since God is "no respecter of persons" and "sees the hearts" of everybody, Catholics accept that a fervent and devout non-Catholic Christian who loves and serves their neighbor for love of God is much more likely to find favor with God and salvation through Christ than a "nominal" Catholic who does not sincerely try to live their faith--- whatever their views or beliefs on the exact nature and function of the Eucharist might be.


FWIW, until relatively recently almost all Christian denominations practiced some sort of "closed communion" restricting the reception of the sacrament/rite/ordinance to those formally "in communion" with them and were thus rather "proprietary" themselves.


in the peace of Christ.

Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 05-25-2016 at 12:06 AM..
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Old 05-25-2016, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 276,204 times
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In a nutshell: Rome regards its Eucharist as a form of nourishment. In other words; failure to eat Rome's Eucharist in a timely manner results in a sort of malnutrition which, in severe cases, results in spiritual death.

John 6:53 . . Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

In that respect, Rome's Eucharist is a kind of manna; which the Jews had to gather and eat on a daily basis because one dose of manna wasn't sufficient to keep people alive for very long. And the manna itself was perishable. It spoiled in no time at all which is why the Jews had to gather it up fresh every day .

In contrast to manna; Christ isn't perishable; so people need not gather him fresh every day. And his nutrition is so powerful and lasting that people need not eat him on a daily basis.

John 6:49-51 . . Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died; this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever;

Rome's bread isn't a living bread. In point of fact, it's quite perishable; viz: it's nutrition isn't powerful and lasting. Were Rome's bread a living bread, Catholics would need to take it but once because according to John 6:54, the kind of life in living bread is eternal life; which is a kind of life that's impervious to age, death, and putrefaction.

Eternal life always was, it always is, and it always will be because eternal life is what kept God going in the past, it's what keeps God going in the now, and eternal life will keep God going in the future too because eternal life is a perpetual kind of life; viz: it's deathless.

According to 1John 1:1-2, Christ not only has eternal life, but Christ is eternal life; which is precisely why people obtain eternal life when they correctly partake of his body.

The possession of eternal life is an extremely crucial issue for Christians because according to God's testimony, as an unimpeachable expert witness in all matters pertaining to His son, Christians lacking eternal life also lack His son; viz: they are quite christless.

1John 5:11-12 . . This is what God has testified: He has given us eternal life, and this life is in His son. So whoever has God's son has this life; and whosoever does not have this life, does not have His son.

Christless Christians are in grave danger of the sum of all fears.

Rom 8:9 . . If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Q: What does that mean for Christians who hope to get eternal life after they're dead rather than now? Are they christless too?

A: Yes; unless of course God is a person of questionable integrity who cannot be trusted to always tell the truth.

1John 5:10 . . Whoever does not believe God has made Him a liar by not believing the testimony God has given about his Son.

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Last edited by NyawehNyoh; 05-25-2016 at 09:50 AM..
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Old 05-25-2016, 09:45 AM
 
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sorry, no. daily communion is NOT required by either the Catholic or Orthodox churches---instead as already mentioned the MINIMUM requirement is ONCE a year---more is certainly recommended but NOT required. certainly worthy reception of the Eucharist is regarded as the supreme nourishment for the soul of a Christian but it is not the sole means by which they can become more united to Christ and the Catholic and Orthodox churches have NEVER taught otherwise.


sincere prayer, reading the bible, fellowship and worship of God with other Christians both individually AND as part of the Eucharistic gathering of the Christian community (aka "mass", "divine liturgy") where all those things also take place are also regarded as important means of grace. Catholic and Orthodox belief is that the Eucharist involves not only a remembrance/memorial of the saving work of Jesus through His sacrificial death as the "Lamb of God" but also through the power of God that the benefits of that death for our sins are continually and eternally made present when they worthily receive the body and blood of Christ that He offers them in that Eucharistic feast.


of course no matter how we are nourished spiritually, all these things are useful only in so far as they lead us to lives of faith, hope, and love for God and charity and forgiveness for our neighbor. the new life in Christ received in baptism and renewed and strengthened through communion (and every other means of grace including according to Catholic and Orthodox belief other sacraments like penance/confession, confirmation, etc.) has the highest value and effect when we share the love and life of Christ that we have received with others.


in the peace of Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.

Last edited by georgeinbandonoregon; 05-25-2016 at 10:42 AM..
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Old 05-25-2016, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 276,204 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgeinbandonoregon View Post
sorry, no. daily communion is NOT required by either the Catholic or Orthodox churches
Where does post #14 claim communion is a daily requirement?

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Old 05-25-2016, 10:06 AM
 
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I'm sorry, but the wafer and the grape juice are SYMBOLS of His body, not His actual body, which is Spirit.

True communion is when the bread (letter) is eaten with the wine (light/understanding of the Spirit) are brought together, which is why Jesus said to do this often in remembrance of Him. It literally re-members His body in us, as the Spirit quickened Word is engrafted into us. Peace
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Old 05-25-2016, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 276,204 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rbbi1 View Post
Jesus said to do this often
Jesus didn't use the word "often". Paul used it; but not like you say. He said "as often", in other words: whenever. (1Cor 11:25-26)

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Old 05-25-2016, 10:30 AM
 
9,588 posts, read 5,038,804 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyawehNyoh View Post
Jesus didn't use the word "often". Paul used it; but not like you say. He said "as often", in other words: whenever. (1Cor 11:25-26)

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Ok, paraphrasing....will post scripture next.


If you want to receive more of His engrafted body "whenever", so be it according to your desire. Peace
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Old 05-25-2016, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Oregon
425 posts, read 276,204 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyawehNyoh View Post
Jesus didn't use the word "often".
I need to clarify my statement. Jesus didn't use the word "often" in the gospels; but Paul quoted him using that word in 1Cor 11:25-26; where it's "as often".

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