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Old 05-31-2016, 09:11 AM
 
45,306 posts, read 26,855,200 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
So if you have a daughter and God did not give her faith to be believing, and God eternally tortured her in fire and kept her alive for all eternity, you'd be okay with that? Maybe that is why so many followed Hitler in spite of him burning people to death. They thought he could do no wrong. At least Hitler couldn't keep them alive for days, weeks, months or years in the fire chambers.
You are not getting it. It is not about me or you.

Now you are comparing God to Hitler. I feel like I am talking to TroutDude or Freak80.

Jesus came down to earth and suffered at the hands of lowly men under the will of His Father in heaven. Did Jesus ever think that His Father was a murderous monster? No. Did Jesus ever forsake the Father for coming up with that plan? No. Did Jesus stray away from what the Father had planned for Him? No.

The Father did not ask Jesus what He felt like doing. The Father did not ask Jesus for His opinion. The Father did not poll the angels in heaven on their opinion.

Peter (Matthew 16) suggested that Jesus should not suffer and die as the Father had planned. Seems like a reasonable sentiment... God could seem like a monster for allowing His only Son to be murdered. Peter's feelings did not affect the outcome. Our feelings will not affect the outcome.
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Old 05-31-2016, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Florida
76,976 posts, read 47,311,479 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
It's how grammar works, except for you.
I never said someone must set foot in church. It is not very honest for you to say I did.

Here is my actual beginning argument opening up this thread:
Stop spinning it. I said that you said it in the OP, as if that was a belief held by others.

Own your words.
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Old 05-31-2016, 09:27 AM
 
741 posts, read 441,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
Even though your use of 1 Timothy 2:4-6 is misused out of context by using eisegesis in your interpretation. To answer the question...

If the belief of salvation for all were true no one would be upset with God because we'd all be lobotomized to feel whatever God tells us to feel. So no, I wouldn't be upset because I'd be a slave to instinct. Just as a dog doesn't have any ability to upset with the president of the United States over politics so it would be with those that live in a 'all saved' world. We'd just be God's pets. Alive but unable to understand the term 'alive'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
What, exactly, do you think "salvation" is, if you think people would need to be lobotomized to experience it?
Because freewill would have to be abolished before some of the people I have met in my lifetime would ever live the way God wants them to live. Most have never met an incorrigible evil doer. I have and they are frightening in the way they think.

Not to mention no one that I have talked to that believes in 'all saved' has come up with a uniformed Biblical answer to this problem. So the one above is just angle. Another solution I have heard is that God will put people in prison until they change their mind.

Perhaps someone has something different? Which the fact that there are differing answers makes idea of universal salvation shakier.

Last edited by 2Timothy316; 05-31-2016 at 09:45 AM..
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Old 05-31-2016, 09:46 AM
 
Location: USA
17,156 posts, read 11,322,395 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
Because freewill would have to be abolished before some of the people I have met in my lifetime would ever live the way God wants them to live. Most have never met an incorrigible evil doer. I have and they are frightening in the way they think.
Am I understanding you, that your belief is that salvation is someone making a choice to live how God wants them to? (Just trying to get some clarity on your perspective.)
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Old 05-31-2016, 09:51 AM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,109,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
I am just kind of curious if you would be upset if God really did save all mankind because Christ ransomed all per 1 Timothy 2:4-6.
Despite you continuing to reference 1 Tim 2, it says NOTHING about universalism. We've been over this.
Quote:
Would that sadden you to see your loved ones saved even if they never set foot in church?
Of course not. Would you be upset if he didn't?

Why do you think that everyone will WANT to be in Heaven praising God for eternity? I've got friends and family that are quite vocal in their belief that they think that would be a horrible place to spend eternity.
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Old 05-31-2016, 10:09 AM
 
741 posts, read 441,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
Because freewill would have to be abolished before some of the people I have met in my lifetime would ever live the way God wants them to live. Most have never met an incorrigible evil doer. I have and they are frightening in the way they think.

Not to mention no one that I have talked to that believes in 'all saved' has come up with a uniformed Biblical answer to this problem. So the one above is just angle. Another solution I have heard is that God will put people in prison until they change their mind.

Perhaps someone has something different? Which the fact that there are differing answers makes idea of universal salvation shakier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Am I understanding you, that your belief is that salvation is someone making a choice to live how God wants them to? (Just trying to get some clarity on your perspective.)
It's not my belief, it's what I have heard from others. Let's say my belief is neutral. You tell me what it's supposed to be. What happens with those that want nothing to do with God and wish to kill those that don't believe their idea of God or hate God in general and wish to eliminate all those that even believe in a God.
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Old 05-31-2016, 10:21 AM
 
Location: USA
17,156 posts, read 11,322,395 times
Reputation: 2375
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
It's not my belief, it's what I have heard from others. Let's say my belief is neutral. You tell me what it's supposed to be.
Why do you want me to do that? You said that salvation would require a lobotomy. I'm trying to understand why you think that.

Quote:
What happens with those that want nothing to do with God and wish to kill those that don't believe their idea of God
If they don't want anything to do with God, why would they care enough about someone else's idea of God to kill them?

Quote:
or hate God in general and wish to eliminate all those that even believe in a God.
I don't personally know of anyone who hates God. I know there are people who hate some ideas about God, and rightly so. Maybe if they actually believed those ideas about God to be true they would hate God? So, what happens to them? If God is good and God is love, they would come to see that those ideas about God that caused them to hate God were erroneous, and they would have no reason to hate God anymore. Problem solved, no lobotomy necessary.
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Old 05-31-2016, 10:35 AM
 
741 posts, read 441,403 times
Reputation: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316
It's not my belief, it's what I have heard from others. Let's say my belief is neutral. You tell me what it's supposed to be.

Why do you want me to do that? You said that salvation would require a lobotomy. I'm trying to understand why you think that.

Quote:
What happens with those that want nothing to do with God and wish to kill those that don't believe their idea of God
If they don't want anything to do with God, why would they care enough about someone else's idea of God to kill them?

Quote:
or hate God in general and wish to eliminate all those that even believe in a God.
I don't personally know of anyone who hates God. I know there are people who hate some ideas about God, and rightly so. Maybe if they actually believed those ideas about God to be true they would hate God? So, what happens to them? If God is good and God is love, they would come to see that those ideas about God that caused them to hate God were erroneous, and they would have no reason to hate God anymore. Problem solved, no lobotomy necessary.
[/quote]

I do know of people that hate God and they know what good God wants to do and fully reject it. They have full accurate knowledge of God's purpose. So, what about those people? Everyone so far has failed to explain what is to happen with these folks that don't want to live as God wants them to live. These love to kill. They love war. They love violence. They hate love. They smile at other people's pain. They enjoy watching friendships die. They encourage more hate and divisions. It's hard to imagine such people exist but they do. So how will their mind's be 100% changed?

The problem was not solved.
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Old 05-31-2016, 11:00 AM
 
Location: USA
17,156 posts, read 11,322,395 times
Reputation: 2375
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post

I do know of people that hate God and they know what good God wants to do and fully reject it. They have full accurate knowledge of God's purpose. .

What do you believe God's purpose is?

Quote:
Everyone so far has failed to explain what is to happen with these folks that don't want to live as God wants them to live. These love to kill. They love war. They love violence. They hate love. They smile at other people's pain. They enjoy watching friendships die. They encourage more hate and divisions. It's hard to imagine such people exist but they do. So how will their mind's be 100% changed?

The problem was not solved.
Well, how did you come to desire to live as God wants you to? Were you born that way?
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Old 05-31-2016, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Florida
76,976 posts, read 47,311,479 times
Reputation: 14779
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Timothy316 View Post
What happens with those that want nothing to do with God and wish to kill those that don't believe their idea of God or hate God in general and wish to eliminate all those that even believe in a God.
Like ISIS?
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